This thread is for reader comments about the latest post at zombietime:

John Holdren, Obama’s Science Czar, says: Forced abortions and mass sterilization needed to save the planet

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694 Responses to “New at zombietime: John Holdren, forced abortions and mass sterilization”

  1. 1Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 8:50 am:

    I recall, many many years ago, taking a class in philosophy…the discussion came around to Paul Erlich (that biologist who at the time had written an article about “life-boat earth”). The “argument” Erlich used (this was to inflame the reader) was to compare the Earth to a “life-boat”, and that the “life-boat” had limited resources. Basically, inside the lifeboat were “us”, and the whole idea was that others wanted onboard…Erlich suggested (say, does this remind one of that BNP leader’s statements yesterday?) that people should be thrown overboard, so that a few could survive…yeah, that was the basic thesis…utterly disgusting. The prof of our philosophy class stated that the whole argument’s premise was based on a false dichotomy…a false dilemma…manipulatively designed to have people choosing to kill/murder others so as to “survive.” And, this is Holdren’s “colleague”?

      

  2. 2Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 9:42 am:

    The world view of Sodom and Gomorrah. Nuf said?

      

  3. 3Eben on Jul 10, 2009 at 10:25 am:

    Makes my blood run cold.

      

  4. 4Vicious Babushka on Jul 10, 2009 at 10:31 am:

    I have 9 children and 22 grandchildren. From my cold, dead uterus! Come and get me, “Planetary regime coppers”!

    BWAHAHAHA!!!!

      

  5. 5np on Jul 10, 2009 at 11:42 am:

    There is a capsule already for birth control that is implanted under the skin- it is called Implanon. It only lasts 3 years and of course is still voluntary but I got a little chill on the back of my neck when I read that!

      

  6. 6mbs on Jul 10, 2009 at 11:48 am:

    Of course, now the manufactured “crisis” of the day is AGW, i.e., Anthropogenic Global Warming. One wonders what draconian measures Mr. Holdren will advocate in response to this “crisis.” We probably don’t have long to find out.

      

  7. 7mbs on Jul 10, 2009 at 11:49 am:

    I meant to add to my comment above, and now Mr. Holdren is in a position, with enough support from the current administration, to implement whatever policies he comes up with. Scary thought.

      

  8. 8CattusMagnus on Jul 10, 2009 at 11:50 am:

    Zombie, you are my hero for reporting this kind of thing.

    “Is Holdren seriously suggesting that “some” people contribute to social deterioriation more than others, and thus should be sterilized or forced to have abortions, to prevent them from propagating their kind?” Yes he is. And I’m sure the people contributing to social deterioration are non-marxists and anyone with a spiritual inclination.

    “Isn’t that eugenics, plain and simple? And isn’t eugenics universally condemned as a grotesquely evil practice?” No it’s not. I know several people of the liberal persuasion who think eugenics is just dandy.

    While reading the report I kept thinking about Huxley’s Brave New World. I think Holdren would be the type to embrace that kind of society. I also kept thinking of how he must loathe Sarah Palin for bringing so many children in the world and not aborting the retarded one.

    I will be recommending this report to other “pro-natalists” so they can see exactly who Obama is employing in our government. What a piece of work this Holdren is. He really should take his “planetary regime” bullshit and cram it.

      

  9. 9Anthony on Jul 10, 2009 at 11:59 am:

    There may be as many as 28 “czars” in the Obama Administration.

    Some of them aren’t much better than Holdren.

      

  10. 10True Resistance on Jul 10, 2009 at 12:16 pm:

    If nothing happens to slow the rate of population growth, earth will eventually overpopulate.

    Humans will kill each other for living space and food. Famine and disease will be rampant. To prevent this from happening, radical members of the elite class may try some of the things this book talks about. The programs very well may be cloaked in some kind of ethnic clensing program combined with a war for resources.

    Overpopulation will happen locally before it happens globally. I’d be more concerned about the elites trying reduction out in large cities than in some rural community. You guys in L.A. watch out!

    I’ve heared that the earth has nearly 6.5 billion people on it and growing. Does anyone have scientific figures for the actual population estimate and at what number earth would be truly over populated? These will be very important numbers to know in terms of predicting when a depopulation attempt might happen.

      

  11. 11Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 12:18 pm:

    ‘I challenge John Holdren to publicly renounce and disavow the opinions and recommendations he made in the book Ecoscience; and until he does so, I will hold him responsible for those statements.’

    He did that at the senate confirmation hearings in February. Check the transcript for the back and forth with Vitter.

      

  12. 12zombie on Jul 10, 2009 at 12:44 pm:

    #11Anonymous

    “He did that at the senate confirmation hearings in February. Check the transcript for the back and forth with Vitter.”

    Please provide a link. I’ve searched and searched, and found no such transcript online. If you know the URL, please post it here, and I’ll include it in the report. Thanks.

      

  13. 13John on Jul 10, 2009 at 12:53 pm:

    Zombie,

    Wow, an amazing bit of reporting.

    I’ve written something on the topic of Ginsburg’s statement which compliments what you’ve said. Haven’t published it yet and now I’m glad I waited. My piece tied Ginsburg to Paul Ehrilich and some statements in the Rockefeller Commssion report (1972) which are similar to some of the things you’ve found in this book.

    Anyway, I intend to rely on some of your work (with credit of course) to flesh out my own on the connection between Ehrlich and abortion of undesirables. I’d be happy to show you what I’ve got but you’re a hard man to reach. If you’re interested just e-mail me and I’ll respond ASAP.

      

  14. 14Tony on Jul 10, 2009 at 1:02 pm:

    Okay are we seriously suprised here?

    Obama was associated professionally and personally with a admitted terrorist for years… (william ayers)

    but that was okay

    Obama’s “spristal advisor” and pastor to the church he went to for 20 years is a raving racist…(the “rev” wright”

    nothing to see here folks move on..

    Obama’s Sec of the Tres. is a tax cheat…

    its okay we’ll figure it out

    the list goes on and on, but a good protion of the public either doesn’t care or is happy about the “change”

    I better shut up now before ward churchill is nominated to be the sec. of Education.

      

  15. 15Ghilmeini on Jul 10, 2009 at 1:05 pm:

    Nice work Zombie!

      

  16. 16Skeptic on Jul 10, 2009 at 1:33 pm:

    Gee, looks just like global warming. Doesn’t it?

      

  17. 17dude on Jul 10, 2009 at 1:45 pm:

    Really nice work Zombie.

      

  18. 18Rob on Jul 10, 2009 at 2:18 pm:

    “If nothing happens to slow the rate of population growth, earth will eventually overpopulate.

    Humans will kill each other for living space and food. Famine and disease will be rampant.”

    It has been posited by a statistician that the entire population of the Earth could be installed in the state of Texas, with a resulting density less than that of the island of Manhattan. So much for the “Population Bomb.”

    The most casual perusal of the globe exposes the fraudulence of these scare-mongering “arguments,” and a few months spent driving around this country (to say nothing of the remainder of the planet) is enough to once again make evident the truth of the statement “Environmentalists live in cities.”

      

  19. 19Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 2:35 pm:

    Thanks for the great article, Zombie.

    As a scientist, I think that the most instructive history lesson embedded in this story is the role of catastrophic prophecies in academic thought. There is a permanent niche in academia for people who declare in strongest terms that a disaster is nigh upon us and that our only hope is to give (who else?) academics unprecedented power to set national policy. The population control, anti-nuclear and climate change movements fit this pattern nicely. These “prophets”, who comprise a minority among scientists, make dire pronouncements because it is a great way to appear in the popular press, publish books, and get tenure. Their visions of despair and destruction usually fail to materialize. Consequently, “prophets” have historically been much more likely to go on NPR than to land a job at the White House — until recently.

    Fortunately, it does not matter that John Holdren passionately believed in the overpopulation crisis three decades ago. He published in favor of this proposition, others published against it, and the people in charge (wisely) did nothing, because there were no hard facts to respond to. We can now only hope that Holdren has learned some caution and humility since 1977, and that he uses his policy-making power to respond to real, not predicted crises. If the standard of evidence required to deprive Americans of property and freedoms is relaxed to include the testimony of prophets, we are in for a long ride. With Waxman-Markey still alive and kicking up on the hill, I’m not holding my breath.

      

  20. 20Fenris on Jul 10, 2009 at 3:04 pm:

    There must be something wrong with me. After reading this, my first reaction was “Great. Now the Jonestards are gonna latch onto it as evidence for the conspiracy-du-jour.”

      

  21. 21Ken on Jul 10, 2009 at 3:14 pm:

    Something has to be done about overpopulation. Invasive, non-voluntary operations are unacceptable, however.

      

  22. 22Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 4:34 pm:

    Great work Zombie. I must say, I do not believe President Obama was a stranger to these views, either at Columbia or when he chose Holdren as a Czar. Why do I state this? Because I am not unfamiliar with the views. Although I did not associate the views with Holdren, I certainly associate them with Ehrlich. Yes, I had to read some of Ehrlich’s junk when in school. And not just in school, but in graduate school and law school. I find Obama interesting because I am the same age. I studied at top schools when he did and attended law school when he did. As it turns out, we appear to have taken similar classes. I find it impossible, when I read Obama’s Columbia newspaper reporting and his speeches in Russia and Europe, that Obama was not exposed to Holdren’s views long ago. In fact, I suspect Obama took more radical classes than I did and studied the theories more closely than I. Obama’s policies for dealing with Russia and nuclear weapons are straight out of 1982. They also mirror Holdren’s anti-nuclear views from that era. (Thanks for the links) One thing is clear from your reporting. Holdren is a monster. Perhaps that is why he ended up at Harvard. It certainly explains why he was at Berkeley. It matters not if Holdren disavows his own statements. It is what is in his heart and his head that allowed him to write what he did in the first place. Utter contempt for his fellow man. Elitism. Arrogance. The man thinks of himself as superior to others. If one tenth of that mindset remains, and that tenth helps shape any “plan” Holdren creates, then God help us.

      

  23. 23Horse on Jul 10, 2009 at 4:54 pm:

    Perhaps the significantly adverse impact from AGW “solutions” and government “cost savings” with national health care are just new means to his original ends.

      

  24. 24Rob on Jul 10, 2009 at 4:56 pm:

    I repeat, Manhattan (population 1,634,795) has a square mileage of 22.96, resulting in 71,201 bodies per square mile.

    World population is estimated at 6,706,993,152, and the square mileage of Texas is 268,820.

    If the entire WORLD lived in Texas, the population density would equal 24,950 people per square mile, or approximately 30% that of Manhattan. Overpopulation is a myth, perpetuated by urban “intellectuals” who could not conceive of anyone living anywhere but New York, London, Tokyo, Los Angeles etc etc etc.

    Urban elites are enormously threatened by people who value self-sufficiency over in-group acceptance, as evidenced by the hysteria in response to Sarah Palin as a person. Erlich’s projections have been discredited for decades, and only in the ivory towers of academe has that fact been ignored. These were also the same people, remember, who militated against nuclear power in the ’70s on the basis of “Nuclear Winter” (We’re All Gonna Freeze To Death In The Dark.)

    Every bit of this is part of the ongoing and concerted effort by the Left to destroy the West, and every victim of Public Education who believes in the fantasy of Death By Overpopulation has (and continues to be) sold a bill of goods.

      

  25. 25Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 5:05 pm:

    There is a case of bio-engineered corn crops that contained a type of birth control, reduced fertility. The corn has been grown, but no one knows why they would do such a thing? HMMM…. I will search for the source and post it back here when found.

      

  26. 26Scott on Jul 10, 2009 at 5:27 pm:

    Zombie:

    Once again, kudos for exposing the real Obama agenda. This guy is no different from the alarmist global warming people, as observed elsewhere in these comments. I think the Gramsci license plate on the bug posted a few weeks ago is evident in the appointment of people like Holdren and Chu. These people want power…not equality. They want control, not freedom for the people. It is interesting to me to compare and contrast, though, Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s initial understanding of Roe v Wade…her interpretation of it was that government was seeking the power to control certain populations. Turns out, 36 years later and 40 million abortions + that Roe v Wade’s net effect has been to control certain populations. Black babies have a far higher propensity for abortion than whites. This Holdren person advocates for population control as decided by bureacrats like him. Amazingly, we have evidence that population control in China has been completely unsuccessful (given their immense population of 1.6 Billion and counting). They have succeeded, however, in reducing the number of females. So now Chinese males, in order to successfully mate, will immigrate to other countries.

    The arrogance of these Obama appointees is stunning.

      

  27. 27Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 5:35 pm:

    Amazon has the book on sale if interested.

      

  28. 281conservativemom on Jul 10, 2009 at 5:47 pm:

    Once again I repeat
    God help us

      

  29. 29Jay on Jul 10, 2009 at 6:03 pm:

    Unbelievable – and we are told that using God in any way (or in public) is a violation of our constitution. Helllooooo McFly, then what is this? God help us is right. I see this great country getting worst every day and all in the name of Obamanism/socialism and idiotism. If Holdren and company feel so strongly about the increase of our population being detrimental to our world, then it is men who think like this who need to be castrated. Now you’ve solved two problems: the reproduction of such thinkers and the deduction of our population.

      

  30. 30average_guy on Jul 10, 2009 at 6:42 pm:

    Ruth Bader Ginsburg in an interview to be published this Sunday in the New York Times: “JUSTICE GINSBURG: Yes, the ruling about that surprised me. [Harris v. McRae — in 1980 the court upheld the Hyde Amendment, which forbids the use of Medicaid for abortions.] Frankly I had thought that at the time Roe was decided, there was concern about population growth and particularly growth in populations that we don’t want to have too many of.”

    LINK HERE: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/magazine/12ginsburg-t.html?pagewanted=4

    If the US Government takes over our healthcare system, how long after that do you think they’ll implement these policies?

    Zombie, thank you, thank you, thank you for the doing the jobs that The Mainstream Media just won’t do.

      

  31. 31Zendo Deb on Jul 10, 2009 at 6:58 pm:

  32. 32Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 7:05 pm:

    It has finally arrived. we can no longer trust any person in political position.

    THE BEST LAW TO BE PASSED IS THAT CONGRESS MUST CLOSED EVERY OTHER YEAR.
    LEAVES US WITH AT LEASTPROTECTION FROM THEM FOR 1 YEAR AT A TIME

    Bob Lawley

      

  33. 33kev on Jul 10, 2009 at 7:24 pm:

    I CANT BELEIVE WE HAVE THIS MONSTER IN CHARGE OF POLICY.MOST PEOPLE DONT EVEN KNOW WHO MARGARET SANGER IS .TOO MUCH IGNORANCE AND APATHY.

      

  34. 34Artruen on Jul 10, 2009 at 7:30 pm:

    pretty amazing. Mengele immediately comes to mind. Along with a cold shiver.

      

  35. 35JSharke on Jul 10, 2009 at 8:14 pm:

    There is a solution to overpopulation. More capitalism.

    At the start of the Industrial Revolution, the technological and economic advances made possible by capitalism were responsible for the most explosive growth in population seen in human history. I can’t remember the exact figures, but it goes something like this: It took hundreds of thousands of years for the human population to reach a billion. After the Industrial Revolution, successive billions were added in a hundred years, then 75, then 50, then 25. This is merely a rough impression of the official figures but you get the general idea.

    The reason for this exponential growth is of course the unprecedented gains in prosperity and living standards that capitalism brought us. Unlike pre-industrial times in which most children either died during birth or not long after, the industrial age saw these same children living past the age of ten and into full adulthood to reproduce themselves. Nobody but the most heartless, unfeeling, unhuman monsters could possibly want mankind to return to the misery, poverty and subsistence of the pre-industrial age.

    But the early Industrial Revolution was still primitive in constrast to modern times. Life was a lot simpler, with far less in the way of “leisure” to occupy the time spent outside of working hours. Work was a lot more physically demanding and left far less energy for play. There was no internet, no TV, no Caribbean cruises, no video games. Education was far less accessible. It’s no surprise that in such times, raising a family was considered the most important goal in life and the degree of one’s perceived success was directly proportional to the size of the family raised. It’s no wonder that populations exploded – there was little else on which to spend the new found prosperity made possible by capitalism and industry.

    However, the last few decades has seen a decline in the birth rates of one group in particuar – white Westerners. We are frequently told that whites are being outbred by other groups, particularly Muslims and Hispanics. The birth rates of Muslims and Hispanics living in the West dwarfs that of the native whites. Why is this? Well, most probably because are larger proportion of whites are more “modernized” than those groups, who enjoy the medical and technological benefits of capitalism but whose cultural mindsets are still firmly rooted in the “old world.” The European culture has grown more sophisticated, more complicated, more career and success driven – with the result that raising a family is not longer considered to be the most important goal in life. Those who do raise families tend to reproduce at a later age and have less children. Career now consumes a larger proprotion of the lives of native Westerners, most of whom happen to be white. Those Hispanics and Muslims who have lived in Europe and America for generations and have become Westernized are having smaller families than their less Westernized counterparts.

    The truth is that modern Western culture has made raising a family less important than it was before. As a result, birth rates among Westerners are slowing, not accelerating. The Industrial Revolution hit mankind like a ton of bricks, figuratively overnight – and it hit a mindset and culture that was very much stuck in the old world, which meant that people were having all the babies that the hardship of nature had denied them in the past. It is not surprising that the population exploded. But that same technological revolution, over time, has in the West enriched lives to the point where a person sees his own life as an end it itself, not merely a vehicle to reproduce.

    Thus, the most logical solution to overpopulation is of course more technology and prosperity, not less. We’re not only discovering how to feed people more efficiently with the resources we have, but also giving people something to aside from dropping as many sprogs as they can before their fertility dries up.

    Of course leave it to the left to use overpopulation to denounce the economic freedom which has enriched us and to propose all kinds of oppressive, sinister, downright evil solutions involving totalitarian control. The opinions expressed by Holdren are not uncommon among leftists – I know, I grew up with them. The phrase “China has the right idea” and “we ought to ban people from having kids” are heard over and over again. Whatever motive the left may claim for their despicable views, a love of mankind surely cannot be one of them.

      

  36. 36Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 8:29 pm:

    you people are a bunch of fucking morons

      

  37. 37eddiebear on Jul 10, 2009 at 8:29 pm:

    Wow. Just wow.

    And not in a good way. I mean the junk this guy wrote, not you exposing it.

      

  38. 38Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 8:34 pm:

    I’m nauseous. Like a bag of chips, I couldn’t just read one of the quotes — I had to read them all.

    I’m reading Mark Steyn’s book, America Alone. He details global demographics focusing on fertility rates. Of the developed countries, only the US has a replacement fertility rate of 2.11 (2005 statistic). The others are dying:

    Russia 1.14
    EU average 1.38
    Japan 1.32
    Canada 1.48
    too depressing to go on.

    OTOH, Pakistan 5.08 and Saudi Arabia 4.53.

    We’re not facing over population. We’re facing a demographic, social, political, ideological sea change.

      

  39. 39Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 8:56 pm:

    I remember this book well-and that Holdren was a coauthor, along with those cranks the Ehrlich’s. The scanned passages are real. I remember it because, when I took Environmental Studies 101 as an undergrad back in 1981, this book was used as the main text.

    Even in my feverish and paranoid lefty days-some of the stuff in this book shocked me. I remember, almost verbatim, several of the passages Zombie highlighted.

    My favorite (or rather, least favorite) passage concerned the possibility of cheap and clean energy and other environmentally friendly possibilities for the future. After discussing how unlikely it was for any such energy source (i.e. Nuclear Fusion) to ever be developed, the authors breathed a metaphorical sigh of relief, because cheap and clean energy would only lead to more consumerism, with all of its attendant environmental and societal evils.

    At that point I began to understand what environmental activism was really all about.

    Holdren no doubt still believes the same things, and is laughing to himself about how portions of the public believe green tech and economic growth are compatible. He believes they aren’t-and that’s a good thing.

    And it’s probably a fairly good bet Obama was exposed to this stuff, possibly this very text while in school. He is the same age as me, and if he took any introductory environmental studies courses at all, I believe “Ecoscience” was a pretty standard text.

      

  40. 40Papa Ray on Jul 10, 2009 at 9:17 pm:

    I just sent this link to my Senator and Representative (or more correctly to their minions). I also sent the link to two newspapers (for all the good that will do). I also think drudge and other blogs should be advised of this.

    I suggest that everyone do the same so they won’t just think I’m a lone kook (well, I am but I’m an ol’ kook).

    Papa Ray
    West Texas

      

  41. 41Troy Riser on Jul 10, 2009 at 9:46 pm:

    According to an FBI informant present at the scene, Bill Ayres and his wife once sat around with fellow members of the Weather Underground and casually discussed the extermination of at least 25 million fellow Americans should they–the Weathermen and their like-minded friends–ever realize their revolutionary dream. Obama, throughout his long association and friendship with Ayers and his wife, must’ve had some inkling of their views, which neither has ever publicly or completely disavowed. Thus, it comes as no surprise a man such as Holdren would assume a prominent policy position within the Obama Administration. Further, via his own connections to ACORN, President Obama himself is associated with the Hudson Bay Network, the little-known but extremely well-organized and -funded radical leadership group responsible for formulating and driving much–if not most–of the policy agenda promoted by many supposedly unconnected ‘grass-roots’ organizations throughout the US. I know how conspiratorially what I write must read, and excuse me while I adjust my tinfoil hat, but it would be foolish to think hardcore Marxist ideologues would be without plan or leadership. The prospect of nationalization of health care and energy are the very least of our problems, in my view. These people are dangerous, delusional, driven, and now–thanks to a compliant press and an easily manipulated and malleable voting public–in charge.

      

  42. 42Anonymous on Jul 10, 2009 at 10:33 pm:

    Combine that with health care reform and it is not only toxic for the young but for the old, infirm, “useless to society” folks as well. The most aggresive regime to implement eugenics was pre WWII Germany who forcibly euthenized 273000 prior to the ethnic cleansings. Dr Koop wrote about this in one of his papers – but it does get worse. In a blog post I wrote at this link, Rahm Emanuel’s brother is part of Hastings Institute which was founded by Daniel Callahan who wrote: “While the health care system should guarantee to the elderly access to health care and fight against diseases that take people prematurely, it should …most controversially, use age (approximately eighty) as a categorical standard for the withholding of public monies for life-extending treatments under the Medicare entitlement program”. Links to the research here: http://structuringchaos.wordpress.com/2009/06/23/its-only-pragmatic/

      

  43. 43Jeff S on Jul 11, 2009 at 12:04 am:

    “…a concentration of world evil, of hatred for humanity is taking place and it is fully determined to destroy your society.” – Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, 1976

      

  44. 44Mars vs Hollywood on Jul 11, 2009 at 12:48 am:

    Here’s my favorite quote:

    “Control of population size might remain the responsibility of each government, but the Regime should have some power to enforce the agreed limits.”

    To enforce the agreed limits. Nothing can possibly go wrong with this plan.

      

  45. 45Ken on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:10 am:

    #18 Rob:

    “It has been posited by a statistician that the entire population of the Earth could be installed in the state of Texas”

    Ok, maybe. But does that take into the consideration the fact that people need shelter, places for their possessions (livestock, cars, etc), and other structures (roads, schools, hospitals, monuments, ect)? I wonder if that statistican isn’t considering the bigger picture: Yeah, we all probably could squeeze into Texas…but only if we threw out every man-made structure on Earth and gave up all of our precious “personal space.” Remember, it’s not just people that take up space but also houses, apartments, farms, and other buildings we feel we need to survive. Also, violence and disease would free up some space, but don’t forget the number of new people being born that would replace those who died.

    #26 Scott

    “we have evidence that population control in China has been completely unsuccessful”

    China’s One Child Policy has prevented almost half a billion new births (http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/56392.php), and that’s in light of the fact that the policy isn’t binding to rural families, national minorities, or people in Hong Kong and Macao, who represent hundreds of millions of Chinese citizens (the national minorities alone constitute more than 123 million, according to Wiki “ethnic minorities in China”). Beyond all that, there are several exceptions to the policy and it is almost never enforced. Please spare me any source you can dig up, as I know this information firsthand. A study by UC Irvine found that: “the policy has proven remarkably effective, with actual birth rates decreasing nearly to the mandated levels”

    “They have succeeded, however, in reducing the number of females”

    This is largely untrue, though it has happened in the past. Selective abortion of female fetuses hasn’t been a problem since at least 1968. Chinese doctors, as a legal condition, are subject to prosecution if they reveal the sex of a fetus. Again, I know this firsthand. And, anyway, when it DID happen it China, it was merely a cultural defect of a traditonally Confucian society. That’s why it happens in South Korea, Taiwan, and Japan, too.

      

  46. 46Ken on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:11 am:

    A study by UC Irvine found that: “the policy has proven remarkably effective, with actual birth rates decreasing nearly to the mandated levels”

    source:

    http://today.uci.edu/iframe.php?p=/news/release_detail_iframe.asp?key=1597

      

  47. 47Ken on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:28 am:

    “They have succeeded, however, in reducing the number of females”

    I mentioned that this was untrue. As a source, Wiki says:

    “Sex-selected infanticide appears to occur infrequently in China today”

    Furthermore, there’s evidence that a Hepatitis epidemic in China is responsible for the lion’s share of male births in China:

    for as many as 50 percent of the “missing women” in Egypt and West Asia; under 20 percent in Bangladesh, India, Pakistan and Nepal; and around 75 percent of the “missing women” in China.
    (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/11/051109092603.htm)

      

  48. 48Ken on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:53 am:

    Another source casting doubts on China’s so-called sex selective abortions:

    http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/353/11/1171

    “80 percent of women in a recent large study said they had no choice and just accepted the method recommended by the family-planning worker.4 The use of these long-term methods keeps abortion rates relatively low, with 25 percent of women of reproductive age having had at least one abortion, as compared with 43 percent in the United States”

    (note: I spread this over several posts so that I wouldn’t fall prey to Zombie’s “your comment is awaiting approval” deal, which seems to apply to any post that includes more than one URL)

      

  49. 49Troy Riser on Jul 11, 2009 at 2:11 am:

    Ken, I thought at first you were pulling that 43% figure from the air. It sounded fantastically improbable to me, so I did some checking. You aren’t making it up. It’s true. That’s the ghastliest number I’ve ever seen. Those ancient Babylonians who made child sacrifices to propitiate the gods? Pikers. Amateurs.

      

  50. 50Lilly on Jul 11, 2009 at 2:56 am:

    Hi zombie,

    thxs for the good work.

    The Ehrlichs not only defend their book from 1977 but they argue “…that perhaps the most serious flaw in The [Population] Bomb was that it was much too optimistic about the future”. (summer 2009)

    http://www.ejsd.org/public/journal_article/10

      

  51. 51Lilly on Jul 11, 2009 at 3:10 am:

    But another paper in the new issue of the EJSD suggests that the Ehrlich’s doom-and-gloom scenarios are unwarranted. Indur Goklany – co-editor of the EJSD – argues that “despite unprecedented growth in population, affluence, consumption and technological change, human well-being has never been higher.”

    Reduced hunger and malnutrition, improved access to clean water and sanitation, higher literacy and schooling – all of these things mean that we now live longer and better lives than we did forty years ago – a stark contrast to the scenario painted in the Population Bomb.

    Goklany concedes that the record is mixed for the environment – but argues that this justifies more, not less, wealth and technology: “Initially, in the rich countries, affluence and technology worsened environmental quality, but eventually they provided the methods and means for cleaning up the environment… After decades of deterioration, their environment has improved substantially.”

    The main worry for Goklany and others is that the “policy preferences of some environmentalists and Neo-Malthusians, founded on their skepticism of affluence and technology, would only make progress toward a better quality of life and a more sustainable environment harder. Their fears could become self-fulfilling prophecies.”

    http://www.ejsd.org/public/journal_article/11

      

  52. 52Joseph McGraw on Jul 11, 2009 at 4:03 am:

    There exists very little truth and the word “science” gets used as if “it” is the ultimate arbiter of truth. O.J. Simpson’s attorneys made “scientific” arguments too. For the few of us from Chicago that know Obama’s advocacy for partial-birth abortions and murder of those born in spite of an abortion attempt, this affiliation is not a surprise.

      

  53. 53Shug on Jul 11, 2009 at 4:55 am:

    Zombie you are a hero.

    as usual you are doing the job the mainstream press isn’t doing.

    while they are in Anchorage looking for dirt on Bristol Palin, you are doing real investigating and reporting

    Bravo Sir or Maam as the case may be

      

  54. 54Starless on Jul 11, 2009 at 5:25 am:

    #51 & #52 Lilly

    Right on.

    Holdren/Ehrlich-like ideas dovetail nicely into the Obama “sacrifice” mantra. Not necessarily that people will have to sacrifice through some form of eugenics but that we will be bullied and guilted into accepting the idea that consumption is inherently bad and that humans are parasitic creatures sucking the life out of Gaia. It is, in their estimation, our duty to revert to some sort of pre-industrial existence. It’s a surprisingly Luddite attitude among people who are supposedly “progressive”.

    As people’s power consumption requirements increase and fossil fuel reserves become less reliable, instead of serious investment in advanced power generation (fusion reactors, solar power satellites) we get social programs telling people to tighten their belts and crappy, backstop incremental developments like hybrid cars. These are the sorts of guilt-assuaging solutions which only developed countries can afford and do very little to help people in developing nations. And that’s what it’s all about: controlling people through guilt, a method which was proven out very nicely in the US and Europe through the ’70s and ’80s.

    The ivory tower Pale Blue Dot/Population Bomb/Carrying Capacity theories have had a couple of decades to prove themselves and have failed to do so. That doesn’t mean that they’re necessarily wrong but they have started to show a serious flaw. A flaw which Freeman Dyson articulates pretty well — that is that the immediate cost in misery of the policies which come out of environmentalist alarm-ism is measurable while the long-term consequences of anthropogenic global warming and human resource consumption is mainly theoretical.

      

  55. 55Ragspierre on Jul 11, 2009 at 5:58 am:

    This was a truly important expose’ of the thinking that THE ONE has chosen to put at his counsel table.

    Thanks, Zombie.

    This gets sent to my family, friends, and neighbors…carefully. They have to be brought to this kind of information slowly in some cases, because they would simply find it incredible it they were hit with it at once.

    Malthus had it wrong, but his descendants are working to make him right by use of force. Ehrlich has been proven wrong repeatedly by economists. And several nations, ironically including Iran, are not even reproducing their own population.

    THE ONE, his power grabS, and the kind of people from whom he has accepted ideas over the decades, present us some frightful possibilities that have to be fought.

      

  56. 56sierra on Jul 11, 2009 at 6:18 am:

    #11 Anonymous: By all accounts the only tough questioning at Holdren’s confirmation hearings came from Sen. Vitter, which can be found here, though not an official congressional link.

    Most of Holdren’s response consisted of hedging his ability to make large ecological predictions. Much along the lines of: “I said global catastrophe could happen, not that it would happen.” The closest thing to a renunciation or disavowal of the sort of statements zombie documented here was this exchange, in response to a relatively weak statement by Holdren that 280 million Americans by the year 2040 “is likely to be too many”:

    Vitter: “You think determining optimal population is a proper role of government?”

    Holdren: “No, Senator, I do not.”

    Based on this statement on the role of government, I suppose you could make a case that any prior statements in support of a eugenicist police state are implicitly disavowed, but I can be forgiven for being unsatisfied by the lack of something more explicit.

    BTW: current U.S. population is 306 million, with a fertility rate just over replacement level. Any population growth America is currently experiencing is primarily due to immigration.

    It’s gratifying to see another implicit disavowal of the 70s-era Malthusian hysteria over population growth. (As an impressionable kid growing up at the time, I can relate my own strong belief that humanity was doomed.) Holdren responded that policies that “ensure the well being” of citizens have the effect of lowering birth rates. In contrast, at the time much of the apocalyptic case appeared to be driven by Paul Ehrlich’s background as an entomologist. The now-familiar notion that humans would respond to a greater abundance of resources by lowering their birthrates, and not by reproducing unsustainably like bugs, was simply not a prominent part of the discourse.

    One little tidbit from the hearings that I found amusing was Holdren’s acknowledgement that the likelihood of nuclear war had indeed decreased. This he attributed to “arms control agreements” rather than the more obvious: Reagan’s stated policy of “we win, they lose.”

      

  57. 57Lilly on Jul 11, 2009 at 6:39 am:

    #12 zombie

    “Please provide a link. I’ve searched and searched, and found no such transcript online. If you know the URL, please post it here, and I’ll include it in the report. Thanks.”

    may this help? Start at about 115:

    View Archive Webcast

    http://commerce.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Hearings.Hearing&Hearing_ID=9ba25fea-5f68-4211-a181-79ff35a3c6c6

      

  58. 58Sherab Zangpo on Jul 11, 2009 at 7:09 am:

    I am absolutely shocked.
    Thank you, Zombie, for publishing this.

      

  59. 59gus on Jul 11, 2009 at 7:33 am:

    What the fuck has happened to this country. This guy is akin to Joesph Mengele.
    How on earth could the President of the United States pick this man for anything?
    Even the Conservatives who are posting don’t seem to see how evil this is.

      

  60. 60gus on Jul 11, 2009 at 7:40 am:

    Has it occurred to any of you just how moronic Holdrens postulations were 30 years ago, yet our dimwitted Mulatto thinks he should be in charge of science.
    Maybe Bill Ayers should run the Peace Corps?
    For the love of God, the man in charge of the IRS didn’t pay his own taxes.

      

  61. 61Starless on Jul 11, 2009 at 7:44 am:

    #10 True Resistance

    Does anyone have scientific figures for the actual population estimate and at what number earth would be truly over populated?

    One scientific number I’ve seen for Earth’s carrying capacity is 11 billion. This number completely ignores technological and scientific breakthroughs, though.

    #45 Ken

    in light of the fact that the policy isn’t binding to rural families, national minorities, or people in Hong Kong and Macao

    That makes it so much better.

    Translation: “China’s One Child policy is perfectly fine because only certain kinds of babies are targeted.”

      

  62. 62ehswan on Jul 11, 2009 at 7:49 am:

    It is way too late for forced sterilization and abortions! There have been mass dieoffs of our species before we are on the brink of one again. One way or another there will be far fewer of us by the end of this century. It blows my mind that youall mostly seem to think that we have a right to dominate this planet at the expence of all other life forms. Have a nice day.

      

  63. 63gus on Jul 11, 2009 at 7:53 am:

    Christ none of you seem to get it. We’re fucked.

      

  64. 64Druid on Jul 11, 2009 at 8:21 am:

    In case it hasn’t been said…

    5. He wrote all this a long time ago — he’s probably changed his views by now.

    Holdren is a true believer today – as (former) Director of the Woods Hole Research Center he proudly boasts of his work “Ecoscience” in his current Curriculum Vitae listed as under the heading of “Recent Publications”-

    http://tinyurl.com/ngd96e

    Capture it while you can because it will be going away…

      

  65. 65Papa Ray on Jul 11, 2009 at 8:21 am:

    Gus…a few of us do.

    Buy more Ammo…

    Papa Ray
    West Texas

      

  66. 66Wm T Sherman on Jul 11, 2009 at 9:24 am:

    I wrote my congressman (a Republican), but I don’t think it’s going to do any good. Holdren has all kinds of publications, awards, and credentials. Lots of people have his back. I predict that pointing out the nutty, arrogant, apocalyptic things he’s written over the years isn’t going to get traction. At least initially, we’re the ones who will be dismissed as cranks by the people with the power and influence, not him. Nothing has happened to Obama’s other, equally nutty cronies. No, they are all respected citizens. Like Holdren, they also get awards and prizes (e.g., William Ayers: Chicago citizen of the year).

    If and when enough of the population wakes up to the real nature of this administration and Congress and what it’s costing them, and if and when the press turns on the Democrat elite, this and the other things will be brought up. Until then, all these cranks are bullet-proof. If a tipping point is ever reached, the press will pile on to Obama & Co. in a manner just as cynical and mindless as their slavish devotion is now. It would be somewhat better than things are now, but we musn’t ever forget the true nature of these media jackals. They are a force for obfuscation, propaganda, and self-aggrandizement.

      

  67. 67phxjay on Jul 11, 2009 at 9:37 am:

    http://www.lifenews.com/int1206.html

    Oprah Winfrey, Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, Ted Turner, George Soros and other billionaires get together to put their money behind abortion.

    May 25, 2009
    by Steven Ertelt

    “Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) — Some of the richest people in the world met secretly in New York recently and talked about their favorite causes. The group, which includes some of the most well-known business people in the world, adopted population control, which would undoubtedly include abortion, as their main cause.

    The London Times indicates the rich elites spend 15 minutes each during the meeting talking about their favorite passions and issues and, led by Microsoft founder Bill Gates, they adopted reducing the world’s population as the main issue to put their money behind.

    Patricia Stonesifer, former chief executive of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, indicated the billionaires would continue meeting over the next few months.

    The newspaper indicated the meeting took place at the home of Sir Paul Nurse, a British Nobel Prize-winning biochemist and president of Rockefeller University, and that Gates was the organizer of the gathering.

    The “billionaires club” meeting, according to the Times, included such notables as Bill Gates, David Rockefeller, Ted Turner, Oprah Winfrey, Warren Buffett, George Soros and Michael Bloomberg.

    They all have a history of promoting abortion and using their vast fortunes to benefit groups like Planned Parenthood, the nation’s largest abortion business.

    That Gates pushed the wealthy group into settling on population control as their “umbrella cause” isn’t surprising given that he outlined an ambitious project in February to reduce the world’s population by one billion, would eliminate one of out every projected nine people on the planet, or 11 percent.”

    The Gates Foundation has given the Planned Parenthood Federation of America abortion business almost $12.5 million since 1998, including funds to persuade teenagers to support abortion and to lobby the United Nations to advance pro-abortion proposals.

    The Gates foundation has also given nearly $21 million to the International Planned Parenthood abortion business over the last seven years. The funds have gone to promote abortions in third-world nations and to set up pro-abortion family planning centers in South America, Africa and eastern European nations.

    Bill Gates and his wife have also spent millions promoting abortion closer to home.

    Their foundation has given nearly $2 million to Planned Parenthood of Central Washington and Planned Parenthood of Western Washington to fund abortion centers. The Gates Foundation also gave the Planned Parenthood Federation of Canada more than $1.3 million to promote abortions there.

    Meanwhile, Warren Buffet had also made donations to Planned Parenthood in the name of Pampered Chef, a cooking sales program with a high participation from Christian women. After Berkshire Hathaway purchased Pampered Chef, it donated $11 million to pro-abortion organizations in 2002.

    In the late 1990s, Buffett committed to a $20 million grant to International Projects Assistance Services (IPAS), which manufactures and distributes manual vacuum aspirators, used for performing abortions in impoverished countries.

    Ted Turner, who has made his own pro-abortion donations over the years, was recently criticized for saying China was a good example of population control, even though it is rife with forced abortions and sterilizations.

    Looking at other participants, Michael Bloomberg is a longtime abortion advocates and has pushed abortion as may by making medical students in New York City learn how to do abortions.

    Oprah Winfrey strongly supported the candidacy of pro-abortion President Barack Obama and George Soros and spent millions pushing pro-abortion groups and candidates.”

      

  68. 68Wm T Sherman on Jul 11, 2009 at 9:48 am:

    Hey phxjay, maybe they’ll sponsor a Margaret Sanger award.

      

  69. 69Gary on Jul 11, 2009 at 9:53 am:

    Holdren’s potential for mischief is scary, but I’m more worried that a man who would appoint such a moronic monster is the one driving this bus which is our country.

    I feel like I’m on that precarious mountain side bus run portrayed in “Romancing the Stone”.

      

  70. 70Anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 at 9:55 am:

    It seems that Mr Holdren is following in the long line of famous Americans that believed in Eugenics. This does not surprise me at all. Most Americans believe in eugenics, they just don’t realize it. Bringing American style Democracy to other countries is an example of Eugenics. You either believe in what we tell you, or die!

    Check American Eugenics Society, British Eugenics Society, Nazi racial beliefs. They are all linked. Why does this shock you? Are you so truly unaware of the United States History of Slavery, Imprisonment due to racial profiling (the Japanese during WW 2) Arabs now, Mexicans, Blacks, et all.

    Wake up.

      

  71. 71phoenixgirl on Jul 11, 2009 at 9:56 am:

    good job zombie! i hope obama fails……for him to succeed means America will fail.

      

  72. 72Lars on Jul 11, 2009 at 10:12 am:

    From pg. 838 “Certainly there is no question that children of a small family can be cared for better and can be educated better than children of a large family, income and other things being equal. The law could properly say to a mother that, in order to protect the children she already has, she could have no more.”

    This sounds like “The rich can have as many children as they want or legally are determined to be allowed to have, and the poor can only have one child or none.”

    This is the eugenics agenda, but allows the rich to procreate irresponsibly with their inbreeding and genetic weaknesses ad infinitum.

    Not a good blueprint for 1000 years from now, as the gene pool will shrink and produce weak minds and weak bodies.

      

  73. 73Tracy Twyman on Jul 11, 2009 at 10:14 am:

    Zombie, good to see you exposing the eugenics agenda. Why exactly does the President need a “czar” for “science policy”? What article of the Constitution delegates “science policy” to the federal government? Or for that matter, the right of the President to create a “czar”? I guess now we see the purpose: killing as many of us as possible. That’s modern “science” for you, and modern government.

      

  74. 74Starless on Jul 11, 2009 at 11:23 am:

    #73 Tracy Twyman

    “Science czar” is what the media calls the position, but it is actually “Assistant to the President for Science and Technology”, a position which has been around in one form or another since FDR. The government has an important role to play in scientific research and technological development and the president should have someone who knows a thing or two about those things reporting to him. Remember when Bush 41 was amazed by a grocery store bar code reader? We want someone around to make sure the president knows about those sorts of things.

    Reasonably decent Wiki article.

      

  75. 75Bob on Jul 11, 2009 at 11:25 am:

    Too bad no one forced his mother to have an abortion before he was born.

      

  76. 76Steadyjohn on Jul 11, 2009 at 11:56 am:

    Great work Zom! Ties in perfectly with the Ginzburg nonsense at NY Times tomorrow. Btw, as nearly as I can tell the entire book can be read at Questia (subscription required) http://www.questia.com/read/98156598

      

  77. 77B Sack on Jul 11, 2009 at 12:02 pm:

    #70 “It seems that Mr Holdren is following in the long line of famous Americans that believed in Eugenics.

    Check American Eugenics Society, British Eugenics Society, Nazi racial beliefs. They are all linked. Why does this shock you? Are you so truly unaware of the United States History of Slavery, Imprisonment due to racial profiling (the Japanese during WW 2)…”

    For a full explanation of this very real phenomenom and how it exists EXCLUSIVELY on the left side of politics, see Liberal Fascism: The Secret History of the American Left, From Mussolini to the Politics of Meaning by Jonah Goldberg.

    For a short version note that the Progressive (modern Democrat) Party, of which Sanger, Long, Wells, FDR, Hoover, and other titans of liberalism were members, believed in various population control policies and the internment camps you spoke of, for law-abiding Japanese Americans, was thanks to FDR, the hero of the modern Left in the US. (Who are actively returning to using the “Progressive” moniker)

      

  78. 78jarjar on Jul 11, 2009 at 12:19 pm:

    I think the guy was just making a hypothetical a la William Bennett. I’ll reserve judgment until I see the whole speech and its appropriate context.

      

  79. 79Anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 at 12:23 pm:

    His mother should have aborted him…he is one of the undesireables in my opinion. Is he out of his mind? Abortion is murder, isn’t it, and taking a fetus/infants life without the mother’s concent should be given the same consequence as a rape would. A teen mother or single mother could raise her own child probably better then a stranger could. This guy is out of his freaking mind.

      

  80. 80Scott on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:02 pm:

    Look, Obama was only 16 years old when Holdren wrote this stuff. Surely you don’t think Obama is responsible for stuff that other people wrote when when he was a teenager, do you? Criminey. And you people really hold a grudge. Sure, sterilization and stuff like that might be a little extreme, but Holdren wrote that crap was over 30 years ago. What’s next, dragging up all that Nazi stuff about a few million Jews, gypsies, the odd Poll here and there, not to mention offing a few hundred thousand handicapped children? Give me a break! No one would think of doing that kind of stuff today, not since we have fetal testing and legal and safe abortions. Palin should have thought about that.

      

  81. 81Scott on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:11 pm:

    Sorry, odd “POLE,” not Polls. Sheesh, keyboards, brains, not even in the same room together.

      

  82. 82Queen of Meteors on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:19 pm:

    #45, Ken,

    You are missing a bit on the Manhattan analogy, so try this. The land area of the earth is 196,000,000 square miles and change.

    Throwing out Antarctica (about 20% of the land mass) and other less than desirable places would still leave about 5 acres each for every man, woman, and child.

      

  83. 83eaglewingz08 on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:28 pm:

    Sounds like Judge Ruth Bader Ginsberg and Mr. Holdren had many similar views in common back in the day. Once again it shows liberals hate people idealize and deify nature and should be nowhere near the levers of power because they are untrustworthy stewards of their countries and mankind.

      

  84. 84memomachine on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:29 pm:

    Hmmmm.

    @ Ken (#45)

    “Ok, maybe. But does that take into the consideration the fact that people need shelter, places for their possessions (livestock, cars, etc), and other structures (roads, schools, hospitals, monuments, ect)?”

    Are you suggesting that they don’t have parking garages, hospitals, schools, monuments and etc in *Manhattan*? And consider that the density projected is *30%* of what Manhattan is today. So the premise is that you can fit 6.5 billion people in Texas at 30% of Manhattan’s current density. Isn’t that better than what Manhattan is like now? With Central Park?

    And consider what technology could accomplish over time. Our technology only allows for buildings 2,600 feet or so high. Pre-9/11 the Twin Towers were the tallest in Manhattan and they were only 1,400 feet tall and not that many people lived there. Build taller buildings, basically arcologies, and you could dramatically increase the population density, make each arcology self-sufficient and increase the amount of land returned to the wilderness.

    “I wonder if that statistican isn’t considering the bigger picture: Yeah, we all probably could squeeze into Texas…but only if we threw out every man-made structure on Earth and gave up all of our precious “personal space.” Remember, it’s not just people that take up space but also houses, apartments, farms, and other buildings we feel we need to survive. Also, violence and disease would free up some space, but don’t forget the number of new people being born that would replace those who died.”

    *shrug* I think you need to re-read the premise and spend a bit more time contemplating it.

      

  85. 85memomachine on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:36 pm:

    Hmmmm.

    @ Scott (#81)

    “Look, Obama was only 16 years old when Holdren wrote this stuff. Surely you don’t think Obama is responsible for stuff that other people wrote when when he was a teenager, do you?”

    Ummmm. We’re holding Obama to account for putting a Eugenicist in charge of domestic science.

    And the whole “Obama was X years old when blah blah blah…” is getting very old.

    “Criminey. And you people really hold a grudge.”

    Call me sensitive but forced sterilizations creeps me out. What if someone grabbed you in the middle of the night and forcibly sterilized you?

    And yes, that has happened in the USA. In fact one woman was sterilized with the approval of Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes when he was Chief Justice of SCOTUS.

    “Sure, sterilization and stuff like that might be a little extreme, but Holdren wrote that crap was over 30 years ago. What’s next, dragging up all that Nazi stuff about a few million Jews, gypsies, the odd Poll here and there, not to mention offing a few hundred thousand handicapped children? Give me a break! No one would think of doing that kind of stuff today, not since we have fetal testing and legal and safe abortions. Palin should have thought about that.”

    Got some bad news for you but I know any number of eco-freaks who think having a catastrophic disease wipe out 99% of humanity would be just dandy.

      

  86. 86J on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:37 pm:

    It’s very important never to cite wikipedia as a source. It is a consensus encyclopedia, editable by anyone, and thus is more often than not incorrect.

      

  87. 87Anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:40 pm:

    Liberal Fascism at work.

      

  88. 88Horatio on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:52 pm:

    Most of you just seem paranoid, conspiracy theorists to me. Reading all the material that was available on this site, it seems apparent that Holdren et al were speculating on options in the event overpopulation becomes critically dangerous. (Despite the Texas calculations, overpopulation is already a serious problem in many areas of the world.) Their speculation ranged from mild to extreme measures and they made clear that they advocated the mildest measures at early stages to avoid any necessity for the more severe ones. You are focusing on the most objectionable measures and falsely claiming that the authors were advocating them.

      

  89. 89Kevin R. on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:59 pm:

    He can disavow what he wrote in the book, but so what? The entire underlying premise of his beliefs is that the government can be used to force society to his liking. He can disavow certain policies in that regard – but he still holds the very totalitarian view that the government can be used to force society to his liking. That’s the entire premise he needs to disavow.

      

  90. 90Horatio on Jul 11, 2009 at 2:01 pm:

    And the issue with overpopulation is not people per square mile – this is why the Texas numbers are beside the point. It is the problem of resources and delivering food and water to people. Even in the United States we are currently pumping water out of aquifers at a faster rate than nature can replenish them. We are using up our fresh water resources too quickly. It is not silly to be concerned about overpopulation. We can hope that the world population stabilizes at a sustainable level before the need to implement harsh population control.

      

  91. 91Joshua on Jul 11, 2009 at 2:08 pm:

    #85 Memomachine: Please turn on your sarcasm detector and read #81 again.

      

  92. 92kcs on Jul 11, 2009 at 2:29 pm:

    Amazing how the left describe Nazis as “conservative”, yet many of their ideas (this one will be haughtily disavowed by all good libs, of course, if it ever gets enough publicity) are straight from the Nazi playbook.

      

  93. 93Jonathan on Jul 11, 2009 at 2:35 pm:

    John Holdren seems to be the latest generation of Nazi since the Nazi’s too wanted to sterilize and otherwise keep those they deemed “unfit” from reproducing. This man is a very dangerous man and it is disturbing indeed that President Obama appointed this man to anything. I find his comments and proposals outrageous and horrifying that anyone would advocate forced abortions or forced sterilization of an American citizen. Perhaps he needs to be reminded of those unalienable rights we are endowed by our Creator with “Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”. People like John Holdren are unworthy of being American citizens and should be stripped of their citizenship as well as immediately deported to somewhere isolated from the rest of humanity so they can do no further damage.

      

  94. 94J on Jul 11, 2009 at 3:03 pm:

    Margaret Sanger, Planned Parenthood’s Racist Founder

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEja-1emRic

      

  95. 95D on Jul 11, 2009 at 3:08 pm:

    Read the comments at the BBC’s “Have Your Say” forum. Many, many green lefties are eager for a plague, a natural disaster, a war…anything that will wipe out a large part of humanity for the sake of keeping Mother Earth pristine. Given the track record of Pol Pot, Mao, Kin Jong Il and many others leftist do-gooders, I don’t think it’s wise to dismiss them as harmless crackpots.

      

  96. 96Horatio on Jul 11, 2009 at 3:19 pm:

    OK. This has been strange and a little scarey. Now I’m going back to the real world.

      

  97. 97Ken on Jul 11, 2009 at 3:27 pm:

    #61 Starless:

    “Translation: ‘China’s One Child policy is perfectly fine because only certain kinds of babies are targeted’”

    The point of the OCP is to slow down the birth rate among urban couples (that section of society with the fastest birthrate) while helping national minorities and rural families raise their populations. You make it sound like some genocidal eugenics law, or something. Actually, alot of urban Han Chinese (the majority) complain that OCP is reverse racism against them!

      

  98. 98Ken on Jul 11, 2009 at 3:31 pm:

    “Perhaps he needs to be reminded of those unalienable rights we are endowed with by our Creator”

    Such as what? Citizenship? Due process? Freedom of speech? You can’t possibly respect those precious rights since you just said:

    “People like John Holdren…should be stripped of their citizenship as well as immediately deported”

    Our rights are unalienable…but not if you’re John Holdren!

    Oh, the irony…

      

  99. 99sierra on Jul 11, 2009 at 3:42 pm:

    Joshua #91: memomachine offers a fair reading of Scott #81. What possible difference does it make how old Obama was when Holdren endorsed these ideas? A more worthy question is how old was Obama when, as President of the United States, he picked Holdren, with his track record of over-the-top apocalyptic reasoning, over many worthy others to be his science adviser? (If Holdren had been 16 years old when he articulated these ideas, that would explain a lot.)

    I find it hard to make sense of one of Scott’s comments. If he means to suggest that “no one would think of doing that kind of stuff today,” meaning genocide in the wake of the Holocaust, he would simply be wrong, as demonstrated repeatedly in places like Bosnia, Sudan, Cambodia, and Rwanda. If the stuff “no one would think of doing” was forced sterilizations, clearly that would also be wrong, as Holdren himself demonstrates. Plus, how does the issue of forced sterilizations relate, in this context, to the availability of legal abortions that are offered to women as a choice?

    Finally, Scott’s offhand comment: “Palin should have thought about that.” Meaning, Sarah Palin should have thought about aborting her Down’s baby prior to its birth. By Palin’s own admission, she did give it some thought, considered how much easier it would make her future, and wound up rejecting the idea. Scott doesn’t appear to share her moral qualms, or even to respect her “choice.” It seems the idea of eugenics is indeed alive and well, unlike so many babies.

      

  100. 100memomachine on Jul 11, 2009 at 4:03 pm:

    Hmmmm.

    @ Joshua (#91)

    “#85 Memomachine: Please turn on your sarcasm detector and read #81 again.”

    Was that sarcasm? Honestly I’ve seen the same produced by some eco-freaks and they were absolutely serious.

      

  101. 101memomachine on Jul 11, 2009 at 4:35 pm:

    Hmmmm

    @ Horatio (#90)

    “And the issue with overpopulation is not people per square mile – this is why the Texas numbers are beside the point. It is the problem of resources and delivering food and water to people. Even in the United States we are currently pumping water out of aquifers at a faster rate than nature can replenish them. We are using up our fresh water resources too quickly. It is not silly to be concerned about overpopulation. We can hope that the world population stabilizes at a sustainable level before the need to implement harsh population control.”

    Not entirely so.

    1. The actual population growth trend lines are significantly decreasing. In many areas of the world if it weren’t for poor rural people having lots of kids many countries would have decreasing populations.

    2. I suggest it is much easier, and cheaper, to provide essential services with a high population density than a low population density. Consider electrification here in the USA. The cities were electrified long before the rural areas wth some rural areas not becoming fully electrified until well into the 1950′s. Plus with a higher population density some development schemes that would otherwise be inefficient or even impossible become useful. An example would be a stackable personal rail system where the rail car is similar to a conventional mini-van with an electric motor and *no battery* as this personal rail car would get it’s power directly from the rail system. Stack the rail system stories tall and instead of having one entry/exit point for skyscrapers or arcologies you could choose which floor to enter or exit any particular building. With all transportation based on electricity, provided by hugely scaled nuclear power plants, and stacked vertically traffic congestion and air pollution would be a thing of the past.

    3. Additionally the reason why 6.5 billion humans have had such a powerful impact on the world ecology has largely been because of poverty and a lack of technology. Increased wealth and technology allows more efficient use of land which in turn reduces the stress on the environment.

    4. By having high population densities, and planning for them, it would be possible to fund appropriately effective pollution management facilities.

    etc etc etc

    Basically if we were to house and employ all of humanity in Texas, or an equivalent space, that would be we could return the *rest of the planet* to it’s original pristine condition.

    LOL. Now there’s some new “green” jobs for you. Tearing up old cities and returning them to grass and trees.

      

  102. 102Dick H. on Jul 11, 2009 at 5:36 pm:

    In the 1980′s I taught an Environmental Assessment and Management course. There were several Environmental “Science” books available, all chock full of useful information. However, they were clearly advocates of positions that removed them from science, as I told some small number of sales people hawking their book. The worst one was G. Tyler Miller, Living in the Environment. I still have the 1994 edition(8th?) with notes, and the interesting one is on page 379 about “curtains of death,” a scientific? term lacking the appreciation that the gill nets referred to have large holes in them, designed to catch fish. This may be current because Sarah Palin, a commercial fisherman, seems to have received the vehement bigotry observed on and off towards commercial fishermen over the last half century in several Gulf states. There are even examples in scientific publications, mostly suggesting the superiority of recreational over commercial fishing. Without apologizing for commercial fishing, the craft is dying in “civilized” countries, with examples of their popularity as in Scotland where they burned antique wooden boats so they could fish no more.

    The two books I used most and still refer to, both published near the time of Ecoscience, were never reprinted and are hard to find. In looking in my copy of Miller I found a fax from Ruth Hendricks, Project Administrator for the Princeton Educational Testing Service dated August, 1994. “You are invited to help set standards for a new examination entitled Environment and Humanity: the race to save the planet.” One of the references was to Miller with included example questions following the philosophy of the book. I know not what happened to this initiative. I grew up during WWII when there was a real race to save our country. Now I see a Nobel Prize winning Energy Secretary on TV who does not seem to understand the laws of thermodynamics.

      

  103. 103tessa on Jul 11, 2009 at 5:37 pm:

    When I was a younger nurse I had a patient who was a week away from death. She was a lesbian, former professor, from a local liberal arts college. I was pregnant with my second child, though I had adopted one I had 3. She looked at me as I was changing her adult depends, and as clear, and as cold as a winter night said, “How many children will this be for you?” I happily said my third, she stated, “Aren’t you ashamed of yourself for overpopulating the planet?” I was so stunned, but I looked at her and said. “Aren’t you glad my parents had seven so you have someone to take care of you.” She died a sick, twisted wretch of woman, still spouting off her sickening theories, even though by following them she was left alone to die with strangers caring for her.

      

  104. 104Mo on Jul 11, 2009 at 5:48 pm:

    Thank you so much for all your work here. (As always!) What a shame that blogs like yours have to do the job of the mainstream media. Can you imagine if the information you have presented here was given HALF the amount of print and media time that Michael Jackson’s death got? This guy would be forced to resign due to public outcry! No sane person would want such ideas even suggested, much less put into practice! No sane person would want a man with such ideas in the position he’s in!

    And my God, what does this say about Obama, that he would choose such a person for this position? What is happening in my country is beyond belief. Horrifying, and beyond belief.

    And few people seem to notice, let alone care.

      

  105. 105Stone K on Jul 11, 2009 at 5:56 pm:

    Good lord… Like we needed REAL fuel to feed the truther/New world order sect…

    Now they are going to look sane… God help us if we have to listen to them spout off about being right.

    All kidding aside, Thanks for the reporting Zombie, top notch as always.

    now lets see if it will be ignored and mocked by the “Media” at large.

      

  106. 106memomachine on Jul 11, 2009 at 6:14 pm:

    Hmmmm.

    @ Dick H. (#102)

    “Now I see a Nobel Prize winning Energy Secretary on TV who does not seem to understand the laws of thermodynamics.”

    Yeah there’s a lot of things about Steven Chu that seem odd, weird, crazy and exceptionally bizzare.

    My fave? When asked what his opinion was about OPEC cutting production he replied that it was “not in my domain.”!

    Secretary of the Department of Energy! WTF!?

      

  107. 107Anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 at 6:15 pm:

    Free thinking is not a pretty thing, but enmity to it is far uglier. In the course of true research and scientific thought all scenarios must be considered, that is what I see the authors doing. Zombie’s line of thinking would have us penalized for free thinking (because it is not Politically Correct, ie, it mentions abortion and social control). I find that type of PC even worse than that practiced by the most leftist of democrats.

      

  108. 108Druid on Jul 11, 2009 at 6:48 pm:

    88 Horatio

    Most excellent Observations:

    … Holdren et al were speculating on options in the event overpopulation becomes critically dangerous… they made clear that they advocated the mildest measures at early stages to avoid any necessity for the more severe ones…

    Holdren et al [sic] are hysterically anti-war and about the history of war being about food and basic survival – their logical [sic] conclusion is to kill millions to avoid a potential war over resources. As long as they call the shots they are A-OK with it, as you are, typical illinois nazi.

      

  109. 109Mescalero on Jul 11, 2009 at 6:54 pm:

    This miserable excuse of a scientist should have been taken out and shot as a war criminal years ago. Holdren is one with the Nazi doctors and Soviet Lysenkos, need I say more?

      

  110. 110Troy Riser on Jul 11, 2009 at 8:30 pm:

    #107, Anonymous, who wrote, ‘Free thinking is not a pretty thing, but enmity to it is far uglier.”

    I don’t believe anyone who believes in the sanctity of truth or the delightful symmetry of reason would argue against the notion of ‘free thinking’, which I would define as a way of exploring new ideas without the hindrance of social or cultural conventions and–at times–traditional mores. A rational being goes where the logic takes them. However, what Holdren proposes (or rather, proposed) isn’t so new. His is, in fact, an old tradition: the powerful over the powerless, the individual in complete, abject subservience to the all-knowing State, which Holdren idealizes as a supranational global entity no doubt to be ran and operated by enlightened band of philosopher-king technocrats very much like himself. And speaking of tradition, those we generally consider freethinkers were and are Humanists to a man–even Rousseau, that pitiable wretch. What Holdren represents–what most hardcore, self-styled environmentalists represent–is anti-Humanism, the belief that humankind is akin to a virus, a scourge, a blight. In their heart of hearts, these people are filled with self-loathing. With so little regard for their own humanity, it is no wonder so many Utopians consider mass sterilizations, forced abortions, and mass murder viable solutions to the ills of the world. In the final analysis, the problem is not one of overpopulation. The problem is corruption in developing countries, often combined with socialist or other types of top-down authoritarian systems inherently unable to efficiently harness and distribute resources. Hobbes was right, Marx was wrong. That’s the truth, the way of things.

    My enmity to Holdren and those like him is not ugly, at all, ever. My enmity to him and his confederacy of hateful dunces and would-be kings is justified and right and–in its way–beautiful.

      

  111. 111chris edwards on Jul 11, 2009 at 8:38 pm:

    well, if the liberals are on board with this then perhaps applying the principle to anyone who believes in global warming would be a good place to start

      

  112. 112Anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 at 9:53 pm:

    Eugenics and population control have always been Leftist policies. A hatred of humanity would seem to me to be an essential handmaiden of such a human-hating belief system.

      

  113. 113Fred on Jul 11, 2009 at 9:57 pm:

    So put Holdren and rev J. Wright in a room together. Start recording. Step back…

      

  114. 114Anonymous on Jul 12, 2009 at 12:34 am:

      

  115. 115Throbert McGee on Jul 12, 2009 at 12:54 am:

    Zombie’s line of thinking would have us penalized for free thinking

    “Penalized” how? Is zombie proposing jail-time or fines for people who go around saying that mass sterilizations and forced abortions would be a swell idea? Has zombie urged people to boycott the business of anyone who dares suggest that such intrusive measures by the State might someday soon be justifiable as a “lesser evil” than allowing human overpopulation to destroy the Earth’s ecosystems?

    Nope. Zombie is at worst suggesting that “free thinkers” who advocate forcibly limiting other people’s reproductive activities ought to be socially ostracized, ridiculed, and perhaps excluded from consideration for the position of “Science Czar.”

    And I regret to inform you that if you consider a bit of heckling to be a “penalty,” you are constitutionally unfit to participate in the free marketplace of ideas, and should come back later after you’ve butched up a little, Mary.

      

  116. 116Robert on Jul 12, 2009 at 1:29 am:

    Great work Zombie. Thank you.

    #103 Tessa – I’ve met similar people. It is always shocking.

    I really enjoyed all the discussion here. One thing that didn’t overtly come up is the question of why we would EVER try to do anything about over population. It’ll correct itself naturally. There will be wars. There will be famine. There will be disease. Sure, technology will advance and allow for greater capacity. All these things will find (and always have found) a balance.

    How could I be so cold and crass not to care about the future deaths of (pick a number) by war, disease and famine? The vast majority of the people who will die from the effects of overpopulation, tragic as it may be, will say that they would much rather have lived the lives they lived than to have never lived at all.

    To me, its not even a question. Who would choose never to be born? No one. So who the hell do these monsters think they are to choose for them?

    Life is hard. Then you die. But it was better than having never lived. If any of you want to control the population, you go first…

      

  117. 117Lonetown on Jul 12, 2009 at 2:48 am:

    I only write to call bullshit on Ken and his pseudo-expertise on China and his claim their policy is for urbans. This from May 2007 NYT -BEIJING, May 21 — An intensive campaign to enforce strict population-control measures, including forced abortions, prompted violent clashes between the police and local residents in southwestern China in recent days, witnesses said Monday, describing the latest incident of rural unrest that has alarmed senior officials in Beijing.

    Appears to be RURAL riots, forced abortions strict population control measures. IN AN AUTONOMOUS PROVINCE.

    So BULLSHIT KEN, get a real life.

      

  118. 118TomB on Jul 12, 2009 at 3:27 am:

    Starless writes:

    “The government has an important role to play in scientific research and technological development and the president should have someone who knows a thing or two about those things reporting to him.”

    And as this article shows, Holdren is not a good example of “someone who knows a thing or two about those things”. Unless by “these things”, you mean irrational scare mongering. Because that seems to be the only thing he’s good at.

    “Remember when Bush 41 was amazed by a grocery store bar code reader? We want someone around to make sure the president knows about those sorts of things.”

    This is what happens when someone’s idea of “research” is looking through wikipedia.

    From Snopes (among others):

    Claim: During a photo opportunity at a 1988 grocers’ convention, President George Bush was “amazed” at encountering supermarket scanners for the first time.

    Status: False.

      

  119. 119Anonymous on Jul 12, 2009 at 3:33 am:

    “81Scott on Jul 11, 2009 at 1:11 pm:
    Sheesh, keyboards, brains, not even in the same room together.

    As evidenced by the entirety of your previous post, #80.

      

  120. 120TomB on Jul 12, 2009 at 3:47 am:

    The point of the OCP is to slow down the birth rate among urban couples (that section of society with the fastest birthrate) while helping national minorities and rural families raise their populations.

    Ken, does the fact that an unelected, totalitarian government can dictate the reproductive choices of a person, or couple, bother you in the least?

    “You make it sound like some genocidal eugenics law, or something.”

    Anyway, since you’re quoting wiki:

    The one-child policy is challenged in principle and in practice for violating human rights. Reported abuses in its enforcement include bribery, coercion, forced sterilization, forced abortion, and possibly infanticide, with most reports coming from rural areas.[37][38] A 2001 report exposed that a quota of 20,000 abortions and sterilizations was set for Huaiji County in Guangdong Province in one year due to reported disregard of the one-child policy. The effort included using portable ultrasound devices to identify abortion candidates in remote villages. Earlier reports also show that women as far along as 8.5 months pregnant were forced to abort by injection of saline solution.[39] There have also been reports of women, in their 9th month of pregnancy or already in labour, having their children killed whilst in the birth canal or immediately after birth. [40] Stephen Moore of the Cato Institute announced that the One child policy is “an ongoing genocide.” He argued that free market capitalism will solve the overpopulation and overconsumption problems of developing nations.[41]

    In 2002, China outlawed the use of physical force to make a woman submit to an abortion or sterilization, but it is not entirely enforced.[26][42] In the execution of the policy, many local governments still demand abortions if the pregnancy violates local regulations.

    The one-child policy includes eugenic regulations. Both partners have to be rigorously tested before they marry. If one spouse has an “unsatisfactory” physical or mental condition, ranging from dyslexia to schizophrenia, they are banned from marrying. The Chinese government claimed that these regulations are intended to “improve the quality of the Chinese population.” In the mid-1990s the Chinese government somewhat backed away on this policy.[43][44] According to a UNESCO debate, Chinese genetic testing is conducted with the consent of the individual and is not based on racist or sinocentric attitudes.[45]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy

      

  121. 121Wansdyke on Jul 12, 2009 at 3:50 am:

    It seems to me that the people commenting on this unaware of where the world is headed.

    I wait to see the decisions they are prepared to make in future, and how they justify them.

    I prefer avoidance or mitigation (of the future issues) – and would prefer a sensible debate about it – to avoid bad legislation being forced through because the debate is so poor.

    Look at how much energy is expended to produce a 1000 calories of wheat and consider how long that can last for, and what will replace it and when (the answer is 6000 calories of fossil fuel).

    Stop making us support dubious characters because there’s nothing else on the table

      

  122. 122Anonymous on Jul 12, 2009 at 4:04 am:

    It appears to me that Obama is surrounding himself with individuals who have radical ideas about the governance of a populace, anyone of which could have us paralleling China in its cummunal control of births. Do we really want to go there. While Chinese citizens do/did not have weapons to back up their opinions against Communist governmental control, WE DO !
    Radical idiots with big mouths and financial backing who insinuate themselves into positions of power must be watched very closely, and not given any leaway from the exact responsibilities of the position they have taken.
    There is a reason we have chosen Congress to take charge of the laws of this country, even if by all accounts they seemly take forever to accomplish anything, is simply that radical changes can disrupt the status quo of a functioning economy and country. Every country which tries to change too radically end up in Civil War, which then literally ends up destroying not only the economy of that country, but the priciples upon which that country was established in the first place.
    Obama, that smooth tongued idealog must be watched more closely than the rest, because he is surrounding himself with individuals who know how to manipulate the masses with lies, for in the end we may have to protect ourselves with lead, to shield ourselves from the idiocy of the selfrighteous.

      

  123. 123Starless on Jul 12, 2009 at 4:38 am:

    #97 Ken

    You make it sound like some genocidal eugenics law, or something. Actually, alot of urban Han Chinese (the majority) complain that OCP is reverse racism against them!

    When a government codifies and enforces population control methods you’re engaging in a form of eugenics whether you’re doing it for “good” reasons or not. Maybe everyone can agree that there shouldn’t be so many Han Chinese in the world, but that doesn’t make OCP any less draconian than it is.

    #118 TomB

    And as this article shows, Holdren is not a good example of “someone who knows a thing or two about those things”. Unless by “these things”, you mean irrational scare mongering. Because that seems to be the only thing he’s good at.

    I didn’t say anything about Holdren, I was talking about the position of Assistant to the President for Science and Technology. Holdren has the credentials but that doesn’t mean I agree with him nor do I think he’s the right man for the job. Don’t try to assign a position to me which I haven’t expressed and don’t hold.

    This is what happens when someone’s idea of “research” is looking through wikipedia.

    If I had been able to find a quickly linkable list of science advisors at a dot gov site (which I looked for), I would have used that. It happened that the wiki was pretty concise and accurate. I’m well aware of the pitfalls of Wikipedia, I’m also aware that some of it is actual accurate, so don’t try to school me on that.

      

  124. 124Gab on Jul 12, 2009 at 5:37 am:

    This is fracking madness. Has any of you actually read the text without the so call explanation and tried to understand what was said and in what context? Of course not. It’s so much more fun to have one’s hanger and hatred fueled and directed at something.

    Wansdyke, TomB thank you for your calm and leveled comment.

      

  125. 125TomB on Jul 12, 2009 at 6:02 am:

    Don’t try to assign a position to me which I haven’t expressed and don’t hold.

    Then perhaps in a thread discussing Holdren, it might be prudent to clarify your position?

    If I had been able to find a quickly linkable list of science advisors at a dot gov site (which I looked for), I would have used that. It happened that the wiki was pretty concise and accurate. I’m well aware of the pitfalls of Wikipedia, I’m also aware that some of it is actual accurate, so don’t try to school me on that.

    You missed my point. You embarrassed (dare I say “schooled”) yourself repeating the George Bush – scanner story, so you obviously aren’t that “well aware of the pitfalls of Wikipedia”, whether or not you got it from wiki.

      

  126. 126TomB on Jul 12, 2009 at 6:05 am:

    TomB thank you for your calm and leveled comment.

    WHAT!?

    That, sir, is a comment beyond the pale and I demand you retract such libel immediately!

    I am NEVER calm and level!

    (for the sarcastically-challenged that seem to be rampant on this thread, that was a joke)

      

  127. 127Anonymous on Jul 12, 2009 at 7:22 am:

    The solution is very simple. Let nature take her course. If we strip the planet bare, we cannot survive. So be it.

      

  128. 128Valerie on Jul 12, 2009 at 8:20 am:

    I don’t believe that the Earth is overpopulated or ever will be. We think it’s overpopulated because of the way we view our resources; however, we actually have enough resources to feed tens of billions of people and give them enough land to live comfortably on, but we don’t. The problem is that many governments starve their poor while fill the food warehouses for the fat rich who buy thousands of shoes and dresses per individual, while golf courses and huge mansions on sprawling acres waste and destroy land that could be used to build schools, apartments, family homes, hospitals, new businesses, and the like. If you take the population density per square mile of NYC and apply it to Alberta, Canada, you could literally fill Alberta with the entire world’s population and leave the rest of the world empty (so I’ve read). Governments like North Korea close off their people from the outside world and force them to resort to centuries old ways of farming that are not as productive and high-yielding as modern farms – it should come as no surprise that they suffer from malnutrition and sadly starve to death. Look at how much food we waste every year – don’t you think that that amount could feed all the starving people in the world?

    A sudden growth of population is actually good because necessity is the mother of invention. When you need to suddenly take care of thousands to millions of people congregated in one area, you begin to think of ways to meet their needs, whether they be new way to faciliate public transportation, new ways to process food, and so on. This in turn stimulates that economy and brings prosperity.

    Population is not the problem – it’s our attitudes regarding ourselves, the human race, and how we distribute our resources, which actually come back to how we view ourselves and our lifestyles as more important than the lives of other people. Look at China – it has forced abortions, sex-selection abortions, and birth control, and now there are 32 million more men than women while there are more senior citizens than youth. Communism prevents people from starting their own businesses and implementing new ideas for resources and land management and ways to provide new jobs, yet pollution is generally left unchecked. Desertification is still going on, and many farmlands in China have no electricity, no running water, and people live the same way they did hundreds of years ago. The government does not bother with their education or anything else; is it any wonder why they die at younger ages?

    Our problem is that we exploit others and our resources to make a profit for ourselves and we tolerate this attitude. We care only about our comfort and we have the nerve to say that other human beings are worthless simply because they are in poverty or because they don’t share our nationality. If we have an overpopulation problem, then it is with people in the developed countries who think the world should bow to them and their skin color.

    If we really focused on HOW we use our resources and not WHO, we could easily eradicate poverty and starvation. I’m not socialist, so I’m not saying we should take away everyone’s excesses and give them away; I think we should eliminate waste and put our needs before our wants.

    “How can there be too many children? That’s like saying there are too many flowers.” (Mother Teresa)

      

  129. 129in_awe on Jul 12, 2009 at 8:25 am:

    My “Progressive” brother is completely on board with enforcing a family size limit on US citizens of 1 child. When I mention that is below the steady state level required for the US population he said that open borders would adjust for that. The implicitly intertwined nature of progressive policies should be recognized, despite our “transparency committed” administration’s efforts to obfuscate at every turn.

      

  130. 130TacoBill on Jul 12, 2009 at 8:40 am:

    President Obama knows that our future depends the gentle guiding hand of a benevolent government. His compassion and multicultural background give our “Gentle Leader” a unique wisdom, a very special insight into the final solutions needed to create a harmonious Gaia. Those troglodytes, those Untermenschen who sneer and scoff at hope and change show themselves citizens of the last century, unable to affect personal growth and flourish in the new age of interdependence, diversity, and love. Our “Gentle Leader” has the will do deal with such issues if only we all accept his guiding hand.

      

  131. 131N. O'Brain on Jul 12, 2009 at 8:53 am:

    Every day and in every way, Jonah Goldberg is proving to be a prophet.

    This guy would’ve given Hitler a woody.

      

  132. 132memomachine on Jul 12, 2009 at 8:57 am:

    Hmmmm

    @ Wansdyke (#121)

    “It seems to me that the people commenting on this unaware of where the world is headed.”

    Considering the extent of the discussion so far that has to be the stupidest bit of nonsense I’ve read today.

    “I wait to see the decisions they are prepared to make in future, and how they justify them.”

    Ok I stand corrected.

    “I prefer avoidance or mitigation (of the future issues) – and would prefer a sensible debate about it – to avoid bad legislation being forced through because the debate is so poor.”

    What “future issues”? Overpopulation is a myth. Most population effects are largely due to poverty and a lack of mitigating technology.

    “Look at how much energy is expended to produce a 1000 calories of wheat and consider how long that can last for, and what will replace it and when (the answer is 6000 calories of fossil fuel).”

    So what?

    “Stop making us support dubious characters because there’s nothing else on the table”

    Ahhh the old leftist “Stop making us murder you”.

      

  133. 133Sherab Zangpo on Jul 12, 2009 at 9:34 am:

    #130 TacoBill

    “President Obama knows that our future depends the gentle guiding hand of a benevolent government. His compassion and multicultural background give our “Gentle Leader” a unique wisdom, a very special insight into the final solutions needed to create a harmonious Gaia. Those troglodytes, those Untermenschen who sneer and scoff at hope and change show themselves citizens of the last century, unable to affect personal growth and flourish in the new age of interdependence, diversity, and love. Our “Gentle Leader” has the will do deal with such issues if only we all accept his guiding hand.”

    Allahu Akbar and Long Live Stalin and Heil Hitler, and whatever else applies…

      

  134. 134monkey musings on Jul 12, 2009 at 9:35 am:

    What a tangled web Obama weaves. Not only does he have associations with the organizations mentioned but he was also on the Board of the Joyce Foundation that promoted the development of the Chicago Climate Exchange, the exclusive business set up to trade carbon credits.

    See: http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/9629
    An excerpt:
    “Obama’s involvement in Chicago Climate Exchange–the rest of the story
    By Judi McLeod Wednesday, March 25, 2009

    “Obama Years Ago Helped Fund Carbon Program He Is Now Pushing Through Congress” is a FOXNews story by Ed Barnes. In short, “While on the board of a Chicago-based charity, Barack Obama helped fund a carbon trading exchange that will likely play a critical role in the cap-and-trade carbon reduction program he is now trying to push through Congress as president.”

    The charity was the Joyce Foundation on whose board of directors Obama served and which gave nearly $1.1 million in two separate grants that were “instrumental in developing and launching the privately-owned Chicago Climate Exchange, which now calls itself “North America’s only cap and trade system for all six greenhouse gases, with global affiliates and projects worldwide.”

    And that’s only the beginning of this tawdry tale, Mr. Barnes.
    The “privately-owned” Chicago Climate Exchange is heavily influenced by Obama cohorts Al Gore and Maurice Strong.
    For years now Strong and Gore have been cashing in on that lucrative cottage industry known as man-made global warming. ”

      

  135. 135Greg A on Jul 12, 2009 at 9:44 am:

    For those who don’t believe this is a serious threat, Algore just repeated the need for “global governance” the other day.

    These bastards are determined to get their way, given the liklihood that the governmental superiority they currently have is not likely to last beyond 2010.

      

  136. 136Joshua on Jul 12, 2009 at 9:54 am:

    Well, I can’t speak for Scott at #80-81, but I certainly thought he was being sarcastic and satirizing the Obama claim that it doesn’t matter what Bill Ayers did, because Obama was 8 years old at the time (see http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factcheck/2008/04/17/fact_check_on_clinton_attacks.php ). If Scott comes back to this thread, he can comment for himself as to whether he was being sincere or sarcastic.

    Personally, I find it sick and bizarre that anyone such as Holdren who wrote favorably about forced abortions, forced sterilizations, and sterilizing the population via food and drinking water could be nominated for a high position in the U.S. government. Even if Holdren had been correct to say that the U.S. was at risk for overpopulation, it would never be right to espouse those positions.

      

  137. 137Steadyjohn on Jul 12, 2009 at 10:16 am:

    How ironic the quotation heading Chapter 13 (Population Policies, p 737):

    “Of all things people are the most precious.”

    — Mao Tse Tung (Master of Genocide)

    “Any set of programs that is to be successful in alleviating the set of problems described in the foregoing chapters must include measures to control the growth of the human population. The potential goals of such measures in order of possible achievement are:
    Reduce the rate of growth of the population, although not necessarily to zero.
    Stabilize the size of the population; that is, achieve a zero rate of growth.
    Achieve a negative rate of growth in order to reduce the size of the population.
    Presumably, most people would agree that the only humane means of achieving any of these goals on a global basis is by reducing the birth rate. The alternative is to permit the death rate to increase….”

    Mao clearly mastered the “death rate increase” method!

      

  138. 138TomB on Jul 12, 2009 at 10:43 am:

    Required reading in High School (hey, a man can dream), should be The Ultimate Resourse 2, by Julian Simon.

    The short of it is that we, as innovative human beings, are the most precious resource on the planet.

    Given the inventive mind of man, the sustainable population of the planet is almost limitless.

      

  139. 139FreedomIsn'tFree on Jul 12, 2009 at 10:45 am:

    Does anyone remember the Notre Dame speech in which Obama said there should be more adoptions…? Maybe this relates to Holdren’s comments about single Mothers having their babies taken away and adopted out.., etc. It is another appointment by Obumbles given to someone who has a screw loose. A very serious anti-American screw. This just reflects badly on Obama. The choices he has made- or the choices he has allowed REM or AXELORD to make (“I’m tired, REM, why don’t you choose the sci-tech czar this week?”) in most cases seem to be like Hitler appointing the architect, Speers, to be head of munitions for the 3rd Reich.

    Join the online American Grand Jury and legally take Obumbles out!! A nation is a terrible thing to waste.

      

  140. 140Anonymous on Jul 12, 2009 at 10:54 am:

    I don’t know what the answers to our problems really are. I do feel that pertinent education has been withheld and that is more of a cause of problems than anything. I do know that I chose not to have children because I love children so much and did not want mine to be in THIS world.

      

  141. 141Ecclesiastes on Jul 12, 2009 at 11:29 am:

    TomB,

    Seconded on The Ultimate Resource II. The text is free on the web. It’s an excellent demolition all of the eco-nut running-out-of-resources myths. The Wired essay on the Doomslayer is pretty good too.

    Does anyone remember National Security Memorandum 200 that Kissinger gave Ford? It’s been described as “Kissinger’s 1974 Plan for Food Control Genocide” and it was made official US policy. We’ve been here before. Don’t tell me it couldn’t happen.

      

  142. 142zombie on Jul 12, 2009 at 12:10 pm:

    OK, everybody:

    I finally was able to view and get a transcription of Holdren’s confirmation hearings, which some of his defenders say is where he made statements disavowing his earlier views. I have now made a significant update to the original post incorporating the video and the transcript, but for completeness’ sake, I’ll post the full text of the update here, to make sure everyone sees it:

    ————————————

    5. He wrote all this a long time ago — he’s probably changed his views by now.

    You might argue that this book was written in a different era, during which time a certain clique of radical scientists (including Holdren) were in a frenzy over what they thought was a crisis so severe it threatened the whole planet: overpopulation. But, you could say, all that is in the past, an embarrassing episode which Holdren might wish everyone would now forget. I mean, people change their opinions all the time. Senator Robert Byrd was once in the KKK, after all, but by now he has renounced those views. Perhaps in a similar vein John Holdren no longer believes any of the things he wrote in Ecoscience, so we can’t hold them against him any more.

    Unfortunately, as far as I’ve been able to discover, Holdren has never disavowed the views he held in the 1970s and spelled out in Ecoscience and other books. In fact, he kept writing on similar topics up until quite recently.

    The closest Holdren has come to retracting any of these statements was in a single sentence he spoke during his confirmation hearings. Under questioning from Senator David Vitter, Holdren did backpedal a bit concerning a different statement he made in the ’70s about government-controlled population levels. Does this single sentence count as an across-the-board disavowal of every single specific recommendation he made in Ecoscience as well as in many other books and articles? My opinion is Not even close, but I’ll let you decide for yourself. You can view the video of the confirmation hearings here (introductory page here), but be warned that it is an extremely long streaming video that doesn’t work in all browsers, and the answer in question doesn’t come until the 120th minute.

    Because most people won’t or can’t view the entire video, here’s a transcript of the relevant part, and you can decide for yourself if his statement counts as a disavowal of his quotes cited in this report:

    [Starting at 120:30]

    Senator David Vitter: In 1973, you encouraged “a decline in fertility well below replacement” in the United States because “280 million in 2040 is likely to be too many.” What would your number for the right population in the US be today?

    John Holdren: I no longer think it’s productive, Senator, to focus on the optimum population of the United States. I dont think any of us know what the right answer is. When I wrote those lines in 1973, uh, I was preoccupied with the fact that many problems the United States faced appeared to be being made more difficult by the greater population growth that then prevailed. I think everyone who studies these matters understands that population growth brings some benefits and some liabilities, its a tough question to determine which will prevail in a given time period.

    If you want the full context of this exchange between Vitter and Holdren, a complete transcript of their entire question-and-answer session can be found posted here.

    I’m not sure just how seriously we should take a statement made by someone during what is essentially a job interview. A few words spent reassuring the interviewer that you don’t really believe all those things you spent thirty years elaborating in detail — what else should we expect? That Holdren would say, Yes, I think the government should lower the U.S. population down to 280 million? Of course he wouldn’t say that during the interview, despite what he may or may not really believe internally.

    But yes, it is possible that Holdren has changed his views and his philosophy. Yet we’ll never know until he announces his change of heart publicly. And so I say:

    I challenge John Holdren to publicly renounce and disavow the opinions and recommendations he made in the book Ecoscience; and until he does so, I will hold him responsible for those statements.

      

  143. 143Eric on Jul 12, 2009 at 12:18 pm:

    re 121 Wansdyke
    “Look at how much energy is expended to produce a 1000 calories of wheat and consider how long that can last for, and what will replace it and when (the answer is 6000 calories of fossil fuel).”

    This is bullshit from greenies like Pimental. The energy inputs for a MJ of corn are 0.1 MJ for ammonia (H3+N, not fossil fuels) and 0.1MJ for farm machinery. Others are negligable.

      

  144. 144zombie on Jul 12, 2009 at 1:00 pm:

    If Throbert McGee or any other Russian speakers are here, it seems that someone has translated my entire Holdren report into Russian!

    Is it an accurate translation, or did they add things about me or whatever?

      

  145. 145zombie on Jul 12, 2009 at 1:04 pm:

    I’m just now realizing that the Russian translation is all over the Russki-sphere! Who knew? Why are they so interested in Holdren? Is the word “czar” in his title what draws them in and intrigues them?

      

  146. 146sierra on Jul 12, 2009 at 1:09 pm:

    Various commenters who complain that the negative reaction to Holdren’s book Ecoscience displays a hostility to the free and open exchange of ideas should be aware that Holdren himself is openly hostile to those skeptical of his views on climate change. He calls these people “dangerous.”

    See also John Tierney’s piece from December, which asks: “Does being spectacularly wrong about a major issue in your field of expertise hurt your chances of becoming the presidential science advisor?”

      

  147. 147SPayne on Jul 12, 2009 at 1:28 pm:

    If these environmentalist gangsters lived the way my household does, there would be abundance everywhere. But NOOOOOOOOOO! They’re important! They’re the party! They get 8 SUVs-per-household; in trillion-dollar gated estates; serving endangered fish at their daughters’ wedding receptions; going shopping in private jets. People in the west take all this newspeak like “KooKoo’s Nest” medication, meanwhile jihadists double their numbers as quickly as possible. “We” want to elimiminate minds and bodies; they just want to eliminate their own daughters’ clitores.

      

  148. 148sierra on Jul 12, 2009 at 2:33 pm:

    Come to think of it, the idea that Holdren now considers climate-change skeptics “dangerous” is really quite amusing. Questioning our ability to understand mankind’s effect on such a complex, dynamic system as the Earth’s climate, or suggesting that various policy proposals to mitigate CO2 emissions are misguided, that’s “dangerous.” But floating the idea that women be forcibly sterilized, or that their children be taken away from them for reasons ecological, or that an armed global police organization needs to enforce these diktats, well, that’s all worthy of discussion. Great.

      

  149. 149Anonymous on Jul 12, 2009 at 3:43 pm:

    What a freakin monster.

      

  150. 150Anonymous on Jul 12, 2009 at 5:03 pm:

    I do not doubt the intensions of this administration.

    they have already overran all constionality in there quest for government power. One thing missed in all discussions on abortion. (IF YOU CONTINUE TO THROW AWAY YOUR FIRSTBORN YOUR SOCIETY HAS LOST THE BEST OF IT’S REPRODUCTIVE BASE) Take away all moral issues and you still defeat yourself. David E Foley

      

  151. 151Joseph A. Miller on Jul 12, 2009 at 5:12 pm:

    First of all, I would like to commend the writer of zombietime on his thorough argument. The crux of the issue, to me, is whether Holdren was saying: A. What SHOULD be done, or B. What governments, in extremis, might CONSIDER doing. Having only read excerpts from Ecoscience, this is not entirely clear to me. But in any event, Dr. Holdren’s response to Sen. Vitter seems a sufficient disavowal of extreme policies, and since Congressional testimony is taken under oath, I have no reason to doubt him on this point. The author disagrees with me on this point, as is his right.

    Many other statements in this thread, however, I find disturbing. There are assertions that the “Left” (however that is defined), stands against freedom. Many of these statements come from people who are (I assume) strong supporters of such politicians as ex-Senator Rick Santorum, who has advocated government regulation of MARRIED, HETEROSEXUAL sexual relations to make sure they are solely for reproductive purposes. Santorum has said that concerns for “the family” brush aside all considerations of personal sexual freedom, and that the State has the RIGHT to regulate the private sexual freedom of its citizens. Presumably, the power of the state would be used to crush not only homosexual behavior but any sexual foreplay by married straights (since it isn’t “reproductive”). How is this not totalitarianism in its most intrusive form?

    I would also remind you that it was CONSERVATIVES who enforced the laws against “race mixing” and “miscegenation”. (Twenty mostly southern states had laws against interracial marriage until the Supreme Court struck them down in 1967.) How does the state reserve the right to prohibit such unions? “Racial purity” was a conservative obsession for many years, and the evidence is abundant on this point.

    Several others on this thread are presumably: A. Enemies of birth control (and many on the Right are pressing aggressively for the restriction of ALL birth control options). B. Advocates of forcing pregnant rape or incest victims to carry their pregnancies to term. C. Opponents of emergency contraception. How is that not imposing the will of the “State” on the most intimate areas of human life? Others on this thread are perhaps big advocates of “abstinence-only” sex “education”, which is an utter and demonstrable failure. How is the promotion of such ignorance a defense of freedom?

    Other “defenders of freedom” have told me over the last eight years that the Government has the right to: A. arbitrarily imprison anyone it sees as a security threat, B. Use torture as a weapon against terrorism, INCLUDING THE TORTURE OF CHILDREN (John Yoo), C. send “terror” suspects to nations such as Uzbekistan where they will be subjected to the most hideous, medieval tortures imaginable, D. declare that anyone who questions the necessity or legality of the Iraq War is a traitor, E. Lie about the reasons for that war, and F. Reserve the right to illegally spy on any American at any time. And some of you have the temerity to accuse the Left of fascism?

    Further, many on this thread attack the science behind concerns about global climate change. How many of you “defenders of science” are Young Earth Creationists who assert, contrary to all evidence and all reason, that the Earth is 6,000 years old? How many of you are, like your hero Palin, believers in witchcraft (which necessitates receiving an exorcism to protect one’s self from it) or convinced that there are centers of “demonism” throughout the U.S.? Many of you are all for science when it saves your life, creates new jobs, or delivers new technology for you to use, but whenever scientific evidence goes against your preconceived notions, you go berserk. How can I respect that?

    Finally, the Obama Derangement Syndrome on the part of many posters is simply appalling. No, Obama did NOT support allowing babies born alive during abortions to be killed (Illinois had a law against that before he joined the state legislature). No, he is NOT for unlimited late-term abortion, as an interview with CBN demonstrated. No, he is NOT a Marxist. (He taught at the University of Chicago, for God’s sake, a hotbed of intellectual conservatism!) Would a Marxist have appointed people like Larry Summers and Tim Geithner? Hardly! I criticize Obama because he’s letting the Wall Street fat cats call the shots on the economic recovery efforts. Unhinged right-wingers call Obama a “socialist” for proposing to raise the top tax rate on the upper 5% from 36 to 39.5; for temporarily nationalizing LESS THAN ONE PER CENT of the economy, and for proposing a government option for health care insurance (one which DOES NOT call for the government to “take over” health care.) Again, how can I take the people who make such unfounded assertions seriously?

    I am against forced abortion. So is President Obama. I say let people choose the size of their families. So does President Obama. I am for true personal freedom in private sexual matters. So is President Obama. In my view, Holdren’s nomination is not a threat to freedom nor is it advocacy of totalitarianism. I might have chosen someone else. But the response to this nomination is so extreme and over the top as to make me glad that I left the Republican Party and the conservative movement 18 years ago. I think I made the right choice.

      

  152. 152Ken on Jul 12, 2009 at 5:18 pm:

    #117

    Found your article. Seems like the villagers were unhappy about having to pay the tax that all of us who have kids in China have to pay (which isn’t even part of the OCP, but the National Tax Law):

    “The new tax, called a ‘social child-raising fee,’ was collected even though most violators had already paid fines in the past, the people said. According to an account on Longtan, a Web forum, officials in Bobai County in Guangxi boasted that they collected 7.8 million yuan in social child-raising fees from February through the end of April. Many families objected strongly to the fees and refused to pay.”

    That NYT article also helps to dispell the myth of wide-spread forced abortions here in China:

    “Coercive measures, including forced abortions and sterilizations, were common in the 1980s, when the so-called one-child policy was first strictly enforced. More recently, many parts of China have been relying more on financial penalties and incentives to limit the growth of its population, which is 1.3 billion.”

    That’s your own source, don’t forget.

    Remember that enforcment of the OCP, like every other law in China, varies from province to province. It isn’t binding in, say, Xinjiang, where the vast majority of residents are national minorities. It generally doesn’t apply to rural couples who have a daughter as their first child, though might apply if their first child is a boy but maybe not if the parents are only children themselves. There are a million exceptions to the policy…when it is even enforced, that is. Here’s a nice report (in Chinese) from Wang Ximing, PhD that explains some of the effects the policy has had on some rural areas:

    http://www.xbnc.org/Article_Show.asp?ArticleID=2770

    I think it can be summed up rather nicely with just one of his sentences: “Jihua shengyu dui butong diqu de nongcun jiating de yingxiang shi butong de,” or “The influence of the policy concerning rural families in different areas is not uniform.”

      

  153. 153Ken on Jul 12, 2009 at 5:21 pm:

    #120

    “Ken, does the fact that an unelected, totalitarian government can dictate the reproductive choices of a person, or couple, bother you in the least?”

    I live here, I know how crowded it is, I know how little space there is in urban areas, so it doesn’t bother me at all if the government prevents births. I follow the laws even though, as a “minority” and spouse of a single child, I don’t have to. This law enjoys a huge amount of support here, BTW. Something like 75%. The only thing I don’t like is hearing about forced abortions and sterilizations and whatnot. That’s totally invasive and contrary to our guiding ideology in this country. Any official who approves that should be executed.

    “Anyway, since you’re quoting wiki:”

    Zombie cites Wiki all the time, I figured I could, too. The first half you quoted is about forced abortions, which I’ve already commented on. I’ve also already quoted a source that give figures to support the notion that the aboriton rate in China is drastically low. I’ve also already mentioned that sex selective abortions are illegal and could lead to life imprisonment for any doctor who provides them. Doctors don’t reveal the sex during ultrasounds. The issue here isn’t the law itself but the ways selfish local leaders enforce it. That’s a whole other issue.

    “The one-child policy includes eugenic regulations. Both partners have to be rigorously tested before they marry. If one spouse has an ‘unsatisfactory’ physical or mental condition, ranging from dyslexia to schizophrenia, they are banned from marrying.”

    Absolutely, unequivocally, totally 100% FALSE. I married in China and was never subject to any medical test of any kind. I even called the paichusuo (local police station) to ask if a medical check-up was needed, they said no. Your own source said China has “backed away” from practices like that, but if you need another source:

    http://people.rednet.cn/PeopleShow.asp?ID=280098

    At the very bottom it says: “As of 2003, the pre-marital health check has changed from mandatory to voluntary…” It continues to say that the check-up is suggested but not mandatory.

      

  154. 154Ken on Jul 12, 2009 at 5:24 pm:

    And, in English:

    “Ever since the new regulations on marriage registration were introduced on October 1, 2003, stipulating that pre-marital physical check-up is no more compulsory, the rate of pre-marital physical check-ups which become no longer compulsory has plummeted nationwide”

    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200603/18/eng20060318_251612.html

      

  155. 155Ken on Jul 12, 2009 at 5:25 pm:

    And ANOTHER:

    “The new regulations no longer request people to show their medical examination certificates for marriage registration”

    http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200603/03/eng20060303_247615.html

      

  156. 156W. Earl Allen on Jul 12, 2009 at 5:35 pm:

    Re: Joseph Miller, post 151.

    I am not, and have never been, either a Republican or a Democrat. I find both parties equally culpable for destroying the protections of freedom provided in the Constitution.

    If President Obama was truly against the use of force in controlling population, he surely should not have appointed John Holdren his science adviser. Appointing Holdren shows us all that Obama is not at all interested in the data and logic of science, but in the perversion of science for political ends.

      

  157. 157Ken on Jul 12, 2009 at 5:42 pm:

    And, furthermore:

    http://chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-07/11/content_5432238.htm

    “Less than 40 percent of the population is restricted by the family planning policy to having one child, a senior official with the National Population and Family Planning Commission said yesterday”

    -couples can have two children if they are both only children

    -more than 11 percent of the population, mostly minority groups, is free to have two or more children

    -In many rural areas, couples are allowed to have a second child if their first is a girl This applies to 52.9 percent of the (national) population.

    Lonetown & TomB: Do some more research before you post.

      

  158. 158Panzerkardinal on Jul 12, 2009 at 6:29 pm:

    Does anyone here find it ironic, that the people John Holdren are talking about eliminating is Obama and his family?

    Obama’s mother was a single mother. So under Holdren’s plan she either would have been forced to be sterilized, abort Obama or give him up for adoption.

    Obama’s father left his first wife and child, then abandoned his second wife and child, then turned to alcohol and died in poverty. This certainly could be categorized as someone who “contribute to social deterioration”. Thus his father would have been either forcibly sterilize or Obama would have been aborted.

      

  159. 159Scott on Jul 12, 2009 at 6:36 pm:

    To Ken:

    It is obvious you are passionate about China studies, specifically about overpopulation. But let’s get some perspective on the China issue…of the roughly 6 Billion alive on our planet, 1.3 Billion live in China. That is 4-5 times the population of the United States of America. That is overpopulation. Now, there have been about 33-34 million male births during the past 4 years, and about the same (almost identical!) number of female births…so I suppose your position that population control and the ratio of males to females could be construed as accurate in this context. So they’ve managed to socially engineer a lower birth rate, but at what cost? Right now, there are 5.4 workers per 1 elderly person in China. In just 40 years, that will shrink to 1.6 workers per elderly. This is because they were busy trying to control their already out of control population, and now have a new problem: how to pay for the aging. And, they aren’t in the same relative economic position as Europe or the United States so the strain of that elderly population will be felt strongly there in 2050. Indeed, I maintain my position that social engineering population is man at the height of his arrogance, and Holdren is just another Al Gore or James Hansen…just with a concentration on population studies.

    Here is a more simplistic (but effective) way to look at this. I’ll cede that the planet is overpopulated to Mr. Holdren. I volunteer HIM to commit suicide to reduce the strain on our natural resources. Same for Global Warming nutcases. I volunteer Al Gore reduce our carbon footprint. His suicide will reduce carbon by 1 very wealthy, hypocritical bureaucrat with multiple houses and carbon-belching vehicles. If you think my proposal is outrageous and inappropriate, you are correct. But aren’t they doing the same for the rest of us who are NOT in positions of power and influence?

    These people of science who believe they know more than the rest of us simply create problems by dictating our eating, driving, living, even reproductive habits. And I’ve found, whenever someone is telling me that I shouldn’t (fill in the blank: eat, drive, smoke, do whatever they say) that I need to watch what THEY’VE done in their lives. It is almost always a situation of “do as I say, not as I do”. And they would always, by virtue of their education and notoriety, be in positions of power to control the rest of their fellow man.

    That, Ken, is tyranny. None of us, including you, should stand for it.

      

  160. 160May on Jul 12, 2009 at 7:03 pm:

    How can you, with a straight face, call the kettle black. You would not fight for the life that is being taken by abortion…you want it to be a right to abort…. yet, you would make a moral judgement about this person with whom you disagree. Why do you worry so much about any human right, if you do not passionately care about ALL human rights. All these rights come from God, not an arrogant decider that your antiethics prefer over another’s antiethics. Thanks for the information. Don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back. You have a responsibility to take yourself out first, before you allow someone to take out a helpless innocent. What a pharisee!

      

  161. 161Anonymous on Jul 12, 2009 at 7:13 pm:

    these paragraphs are describing certain scenarios, but I don’t read any endorsement of the scenarios, just descriptions. Not saying this guy isn’t to these ideas, but you can’t infer that from the provided examples. The same things could be written as a warning about a future society.

      

  162. 162Ken on Jul 12, 2009 at 7:55 pm:

    #159

    “It is obvious you are passionate about China studies”

    I’m just someone who lives in China who feels that much of the “facts” passed around about this country in the West are false or at least not wholly accurate. TomB claimed that China’s One Child Policy was an example of eugenics because of the health exam. He obviously didn’t know what he was talking about and I cited four sources, in two different languages, to refute his claims. If anything, that proves that people like to pontificate about things they know nothing about. It also casts doubt on other claims people make about the OCP.

    “That is overpopulation”

    Uh, yeah. Obviously…

    “a new problem: how to pay for the aging”

    Certainly is a problem. One the government will try to fix and one that I am not qualified to comment on since I have done no research into it. It’s also off topic and I don’t care much about it so I wont mention it on here.

    “I maintain my position that social engineering population is man at the height of his arrogance, and Holdren is just another Al Gore or James Hansen…just with a concentration on population studies”

    I think you’re misunderstanding what it is that I usually do on this board. I usually do my best to try and dispel the lies that people, knowingly or unknowingly, spread about China. I do it here specifically because I like this board and its content and because I expect there to be a considerable number of people on here who believe inaccuracies about China. I could do it elsewhere but I choose to do so here and most of the regulars are probably used to it by now. I knew this post would have at least some comments on China’s policy. As I expected, most of those comments were poorly informed, so I did my best to give a clearer picture of what really goes on in China and why. I’m not concerned, whatsoever, with population control elsewhere, overpopulation outside of China, Obama, or anything like that. I don’t even know who John Holdren is. I’m just here to combat the garbage that flies around about China. Wouldn’t you do the same if some Albanian used lies and half-truths to criticize America?

    “That, Ken, is tyranny. None of us, including you, should stand for it”

    Maybe. But I’m not here to debate that with you. And for all you know I could agree with you! Either way, China is over populated and its One Child Policy works and isn’t as evil or draconian as everyone thinks it is. Whiffle on all you want about “tyranny” and whatnot, but don’t forget that the policy is supported by the majority of China’s population:

    “China’s ‘one-child policy’ is overwhelmingly accepted. Roughly three-in-four (76%) approve of the policy, which restricts most couples to a single child”
    http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=261

    Is it tyranny when 3 out of 4 agree with the policy? Again, I’m only referring to China, here. It might be tyrannical to do something similar in a country where a policy wasn’t needed…but in China? Hell, even Pat Robertson says China needs the OCP!

      

  163. 163BP on Jul 12, 2009 at 7:58 pm:

    Does anyone know precisely when Holdren hooked up with the Heinz people, and was it during the time that he was authoring a book fantasizing about mass delivery of sterilants through the food system or was it some time after that?

      

  164. 164miskatonic on Jul 12, 2009 at 8:45 pm:

    Ken #153

    “I live here, I know how crowded it is, I know how little space there is in urban areas, so it doesn’t bother me at all if the government prevents births.” [...] “The only thing I don’t like is hearing about forced abortions and sterilizations and whatnot.”

    Ken, there’s a serious contradiction there. The way the government prevents births is by forced sterilizations and forced abortion. If all it were doing were passing out birth control pills and free abortions it would be like Europe, which is to say neither genocidal nor growing in population (in fact with these voluntary methods Europe’s birth rate is falling faster than yours). You either have a problem with both the government and the forced abortions, or you have a problem with neither. The fact of the matter is that if you have a pregnancy after having the government’s max number of children, and you can’t pay exorbitant fines, your pregnancy is aborted against your will. That is precisely how the Chinese government prevents births differently than Europe. That’s a fact, whether it be after one child or two.

    Furthermore modern urban overcrowding, including that in China, is caused by modern economic policies and not by scarcity of land or other resources. In particular distorted distribution of wealth and policies supporting economic centralization tend to artificially concentrate wealth in urban areas, forcing rural people to move from rural to urban areas. This is a pressing issue all over the world, India and the US included for example. People who study development in India work on economic solutions (microfinance for example) that curb crowding by creating the ability for rural dwellers to make a living without moving. Without dealing with the root causes, your government can forcibly kill as many fetuses as it likes and the overcrowding will not stop happening until your population is decimated.

    “I’ve also already mentioned that sex selective abortions are illegal and could lead to life imprisonment for any doctor who provides them. Doctors don’t reveal the sex during ultrasounds.”

    The first point is true, they are illegal. Nevertheless by forcibly limiting children, your government creates massive incentives for them to occur, and thus they do still occur secretly. Furthermore until relatively recently the birthrates were skewed significantly, and it is likely to create serious social problems when those males come of age. Had China used methods similar to those in Europe (subsidized voluntary birth control), or even in Iran post the Iran-Iraq war (propaganda and positive financial incentives), the picture would be brighter.

    “The issue here isn’t the law itself but the ways selfish local leaders enforce it. That’s a whole other issue.”

    When you find godlike government officials, please clone them. Until then, well, this is the number one biggest difference between how you see the world and how most of the rest of the posters here see the world. The fact of the matter is that, ***ALWAYS***, when laws are too intrusive upon common citizens, people in power will abuse them. This is basic human nature. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. The more intrusive the laws, the more horrifically they will be abused.

    By the way, the way to limit the corruption of local leaders is local democracy, elections for local officials, because the people affected by them are the best capable of sniffing out corruption. China is avoiding this despite the fact that it would make local government run more smoothly, because the elite fear that this step could eventually threaten their own positions by demonstrating to the populace how well democracy works.

    “’The one-child policy includes eugenic regulations. [...]‘
    Absolutely, unequivocally, totally 100% FALSE. [...]”

    The eugenics regulations are implicit. If you are a member of the political elite, your genetics are favoured. If you are not, your genetics are disfavoured. It is eugenics on a class level. It is not natural genetic selection based on who can find a mate, and feed and educate children. Since forced abortions and forced sterilizations are involved, this is absolutely eugenics.

      

  165. 165Mark on Jul 12, 2009 at 9:00 pm:

    Wow.

    What this guy wants is not too far away from the dystopic classic Soylent Green.

      

  166. 166miskatonic on Jul 12, 2009 at 9:02 pm:

    “’a new problem: how to pay for the aging’
    Certainly is a problem. One the government will try to fix and one that I am not qualified to comment on since I have done no research into it. It’s also off topic and I don’t care much about it so I wont mention it on here.”

    It is a very closely related problem. In China people traditionally have children so that they are cared for in old age. Your government forcibly prevented them from having children. Now they are likely to have serious economic problems in old age. These issues are intimately related.

    “I’m just here to combat the garbage that flies around about China. Wouldn’t you do the same if some Albanian used lies and half-truths to criticize America?”

    The difference is that if an Albanian were giving potentially valid criticism about America, I would consider it an perhaps change my position. You do not appear to be thinking critically about the issues or the criticisms, as evidenced by your comment that you support the government’s policies but are against forced sterilization and abortion, a fundamental component of those policies.

    “’That, Ken, is tyranny. None of us, including you, should stand for it’
    Maybe. But I’m not here to debate that with you.”

    You debate extremely selectively. You debate specifically the avenues of an argument that you believe you can support, and avoid discussion of the points where your arguments are weak, such as future care for the elderly, and the forced abortion and forced sterilization aspects of China’s birth control policies.

    “Either way, China is over populated and its One Child Policy works and isn’t as evil or draconian as everyone thinks it is.”

    You already mentioned how terribly crowded your city is. The One Child Policy had been in place for decades. Therefore, it does not work, by your own account. The economic explanation is superior, as it accounts for the evidence. Your position is riddled with internal inconsistencies.

    “Whiffle on all you want about “tyranny” and whatnot, but don’t forget that the policy is supported by the majority of China’s population:
    ‘China’s ‘one-child policy’ is overwhelmingly accepted. Roughly three-in-four (76%) approve of the policy, which restricts most couples to a single child’
    http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=261
    Is it tyranny when 3 out of 4 agree with the policy? Again, I’m only referring to China, here. It might be tyrannical to do something similar in a country where a policy wasn’t needed…but in China? Hell, even Pat Robertson says China needs the OCP!”

    Was it tyranny when 3 out of 4 Americans believed that blacks should be kept as property, and kept them so?

    (And by the way, Pat Robertson is a loon and a charlatan.)

      

  167. 167Ken on Jul 12, 2009 at 9:15 pm:

    #164:

    “The way the government prevents births is by forced sterilizations and forced abortion”

    Complete lie. I’ll quote this source again since you must have missed it the first time:

    ::There is heavy reliance on long-term contraception…The use of these long-term methods keeps abortion rates relatively low::
    (http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/353/11/1171)

    If you wont even read what I say why should I argue this with you? I’ll have more to say later.

      

  168. 168rs on Jul 12, 2009 at 9:26 pm:

    The only thing that could surprise me anymore is a politician or academic who believes in liberty.

      

  169. 169Ken on Jul 12, 2009 at 9:50 pm:

    “The fact of the matter is that if you have a pregnancy after having the government’s max number of children, and you can’t pay exorbitant fines, your pregnancy is aborted against your will.”

    Another complete lie. http://www.news-medical.net/news/2007/03/04/22369.aspx

    Article describes the penalties for not following the policy if it’s binding to you. It also notes that fines are based on household earnings and, thus, wouldn’t be excessive enough so as to be unpayable.

    “In particular distorted distribution of wealth and policies supporting economic centralization tend to artificially concentrate wealth in urban areas, forcing rural people to move from rural to urban areas”

    True enough. The hinterland needs to be more developed and people need to stop flooding into the urban areas. China has vast amounts of largely unsettled land that could be used to ease up urban overcrowding, but if that happened it would aggravate another issue: People would start complaining that Han are flooding into their areas to dilute their culture, etc etc. Also, I don’t think we should be so naive as to believe that that would happen anytime soon, though the overcrowding issue needs to be addressed NOW and not when we have enough resources to fund large-scale development projects in rural areas.

    “The more intrusive the laws, the more horrifically they will be abused”

    Alright. Well, then, I’m open to your suggestions. What would you like China to do? You seem to think that the only forms of birth control available in China are abortions or sterilizations, which isn’t true. Birth control is avaiable in any hospital. There are condom vending machines on the streets. The government has subsidized birth control since the beginning of the OCP, anyone who wants it need only ask. Abortions and sterilizations exist but most opt for IUDs or other contraceptives. What else could possibly be done?

    “By the way, the way to limit the corruption of local leaders is local democracy, elections for local officials, because the people affected by them are the best capable of sniffing out corruption”

    No argument there.

    “If you are a member of the political elite, your genetics are favoured. If you are not, your genetics are disfavoured”

    By whom? And who has acess to the genetic information of the parents? I’ve already cited several sources that prove that no medical examination of any kind is required before marriage in China. That was the major issue upon which TomB’s claim of “eugenics” was hinging on. It’s just not true.

    “You debate extremely selectively. You debate specifically the avenues of an argument that you believe you can support, and avoid discussion of the points where your arguments are weak”

    Yeah, obviously. Don’t you hate it when people open their mouths about things they know nothing about? So do I. That’s why I don’t do it. When I do more research on the “care for the elderly” issue I’ll have more to say about it. I’m well into middle age now so I probably should start caring about it.

    “You already mentioned how terribly crowded your city is. The One Child Policy had been in place for decades. Therefore, it does not work, by your own account”

    I live in a minority region where the OCP doesn’t apply.

    “Was it tyranny when 3 out of 4 Americans believed that blacks should be kept as property, and kept them so?”

    You said it was an invasive policy that unfairly dictated the lives of the people who live under it. I’m just curious as to why so many people would support it if it was so horrible. As for the moral equivalency you drew with slavery: You’re talking apples and oranges. The opinion of OCP was drawn from a cross-section of Chinese society, unlike any particular number of people who may have supported slavery in the past. I’m sure that if enslaved black themselves were allowed to give an opinion then disapproval rates would have been higher. Even in China can give their opinion on OCP if they want. Most of them have and the results are clear.

      

  170. 170Ken on Jul 12, 2009 at 10:06 pm:

    #164

    Here’s China’s family planning law:

    http://www.unescap.org/esid/psis/population/database/poplaws/law_china/ch_record052.htm

    Nowhere in there do I see anything about the government using forced abortions or forced sterilization as their primary means of population control. However, I do note article 19:

    “Article 19. In implementing family planning, the primary emphasis shall be on contraception”

    And article 39:

    “Article 39. Staff of state organs who commit one of the following acts in the course of family planning activities shall, if the act constitutes a crime, be referred for criminal prosecution; or, if the act does not constitute a crime, be subject to both administrative penalties and confiscation of any illegal gains.

    (1) Infringing on a citizen’s personal rights, property rights or other legitimate rights and interests.
    (2) Abuse of power, dereliction of duty or graft.
    (3) Seeking or accepting a bribe.
    (4) Withholding, reducing, redirecting or embezzling family planning program funds or social compensation fees.
    (5) Distorting, under-reporting, fabricating, modifying or refusing to report statistical data on population or family planning.”

    Chapter 6 describes the penalties for breaking the law. Don’t see any of the things you mentioned in there. If forced abortions DO happen in secret, I’d say that’s the fault of the doctor or official who chose to undertake them, not a flaw in the policy itself, which is clearly against just that. The solution to that is the election of local officials, something we seem to agree on, not scrapping the policy.

      

  171. 171zombie on Jul 12, 2009 at 10:17 pm:

    #151 Joseph A. Miller:

    Unfortunately for you, you are fighting against imaginary strawmen. You apparently see all non-supporters of Obama as stereotypical right-wing knuckle-dragging Neanderthals, or at least fascistic ultra-repressive social conservatives.

    You are way way WAY off-base.

    Just because someone doesn’t support Obama or his policies, doesn’t mean that person also is a Young Earth Creationist or someone who wants the government intruding in people’s bedrooms.

    Speaking for myself, I can say, in response to your baseless accusations and assumptions:

    a. I know very little about Santorum, but if he indeed wants the government to intrude on people’s private sexual behavior, or pass laws against non-reproductive sex, then I very strongly DON’T support him or those policies, which I would find absurd. (I’m basing this on your assertion that he has proposed such laws — I haven’t bothered to look it up.)
    b. Not only am I not a Young Earth Creationist (i.e. someone who thinks the world is 6,000 years old), but I have been an extremely vigorous defender of evolutionary theory, both on the internet and in print. In fact, I’m an expert of certain aspects of evolutionary science, but due my need to remain anonymous I cannot reveal any more than that. But of all your assumptions, this one (that Obama opponents are necessarily creationists) is the most wrong.
    c. I do not support abstinence-only education. On the other hand, I don’t support promiscuity-only education either, which is more the norm these days. (And which I personally endured during my school days — an early example of a far-left public school district pushing for explicit and anti-monogamy sex education.) The same thing is happening in England right now by the way.
    d. Most of your list of the ills of the Bush era has been debunked and re-debunked a zillion times, but you obviously live in that liberal bubble world where you unquestioningly believe the distortions and lies told by the MSM to demonize Republicans. If you haven’t let a syllable of reality break in to your world in the last 8 years, nothing I say here will change your mind, so I won’t even try. (OK, I can’t resist just one attempt: Were you aware, for example, that the vast majority of “renditions” for which there is any evidence they ever actually happened took place during the CLINTON administration in the ’90s — not during the Bush administration? No, you apparently didn’t know that. Rendition is mainly a Democratic policy — which you [as do most liberals] blame on Republicans.)

    And on and on it goes.

    You seem like a good candidate for waking up to the new political orientation I plan to spring on the world sometime later this year (well, sometime in the next three years, at least) — a new way to define one’s political beliefs that doesn’t rely on outdated stereotypes.

    There is no other way to describe people like me, who are pro-freedom and pro-America, yet who do not consider ourselves “right-wing,” nor “left-wing.” I believe those labels are now irrelevant and useless, and yet you are still laboring under the anachronistic paradigm of there being only two political orientations possible, the one you identify with being “good” and the other one being “bad” in all areas.

    I can’t speak for my commenters, but I suspect that many of them feel as I do. So stop tilting at windmills and stop characterizing people you know nothing about as being ignorant villains and hypocrites.

      

  172. 172Joseph A. Miller on Jul 12, 2009 at 11:38 pm:

    zombie, I did NOT characterize you as a creationist or as someone who is an advocate of the intrusive right. I said that I suspected many of your COMMENTERS were. Believe me, after you’ve argued online with enough of them you get a sense of it. If you read my statement carefully, I used words like “many”–not all– to describe Obama’s opponents in such terms.

    I read several of the pages you excerpted, and on page 789, Holdren, et al, say that extreme measures will hopefully not be necessary. He specifically says that he favors moderate methods of dealing with population control. I think he was outlining a worst case scenario in the preceding pages, and I think he has changed his mind since 1977. People do.

    No, my accusations against the Bush Administration have NOT been “debunked”. That’s simply a false statement. Yes, I know that rendition started under Clinton, but it was greatly enlarged and abused by Bush. (http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/rendition701/timeline/timeline_1.html)

    The torture of prisoners was been widely used (more than 100 are suspected to have died under torture, not the 8 falsely reported by Cheney’s friends) and there were many abuses, excruciatingly well documented, especially by Glenn Greenwald (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/06/30/accountability/index.html).

    Yes, the Iraq War WAS based on lies. Add up how many times Bush officials simply flat out lied in asserting that Saddam “without any doubt” had WMDs. Recall Cheney’s attempts to falsely link Saddam to 9/11, a link that even Bush ultimately had to deny. A good chronology of these lies may be found here: http://www.motherjones.com/bush_war_timeline

    And NEVER try to tell me that Bush and his friends didn’t scream that anyone who questioned Bush was a traitor. Fox News, fed by Cheney and company, practically barked it out 24/7. If I had the time, I could give you many horrible examples of this. Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity, and all the other right wing liars were savages to people like me, and I have a long memory for people who call me traitor. Hannity, btw, was one of Bush’s favorite “news” figures.

    My ire was directed at many of your COMMENTERS, not you. I was positive in my remarks about you personally. I am not foolish enough at my age (I’m closer to 60 than 50) to think that the Democrats hold all the answers. But the attack on intellect, the attack on reason, the attack on science, and the attack on reality itself by the Radical Right must be stopped. Don’t kid yourself–I would bet that many of your commenters despise people like you. I used to be a conservative Republican; I know whereof I speak. I am for a reality based politics. That’s all. And for the record, I wouldn’t have appointed Holdren either.

      

  173. 173Anonymous on Jul 13, 2009 at 2:42 am:

    Where were you people when the Furher needed you? We may have hung people who were “just following orders” at Nuremburg; but their ideals and ideas are alive and well in the United National Socialist States of America. All hail Obama, Zeig! Zeig! Zeig! I can almost here all you zombified idiots screaming Heil, with every breath that Obama breathes. I thought Bush was bad, and he didn’t have half a brain. Now we have someone who is far beyond dangerous and is soon to destroy what little humanity is left in this nation; Obama has a brain, which makes him truly dangerous. He willing follows Brezinsky of his own free will. I fear for myu children and yours. How long before we must condemn this system which has become monsterous and insideous, do we have the strength to kill it, before it kills us all. Wake up you people, fear not the goat herders and destitue of the Arabic World, fear instead the den of vipers whose tongues are ever sticking out of Washington, as the size up what is left of the world in order to devour it.

      

  174. 174Anonymous on Jul 13, 2009 at 4:39 am:

    I am wondering if this new science czar is aware of the work of Harry Hamilton Laughlin …

      

  175. 175Anonymous on Jul 13, 2009 at 5:17 am:

    What wonderful news — no more unwanted pregnancies — a simple way to only have wanted children –

    The major problem on Earth is Overpopulation but the sheeple can’t see it.

    Although late in coming we should be celebrating and supporting it fully.

      

  176. 176Anonymous on Jul 13, 2009 at 5:29 am:

    “The development of a long-term sterilizing capsule that could be implanted under the skin and removed when pregnancy is desired opens additional possibilities for coercive fertility control. The capsule could be implanted at puberty and might be removable, with official permission, for a limited number of births…

    Excellent news for people everywhere especially in poverty countries but of course the Roman Catholic Church and the abstinence only morons will not support it because of ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

      

  177. 177Anonymous on Jul 13, 2009 at 5:44 am:

    Seriously you think overpopulation only matters on how much space a person has to live?
    How much space does it take to support one person with food and energy? Not living space. Right now the estimate is at 9 billion people the earth would not be able to generate enough food to support them.

    Do I believe there are people that are hurting our society more than others, yes I do. These people are living off our welfare dollars.

    Do I think that I would benefit society if people who did not make X dollars should not be allowed to raise their children? Yes I do. I also think that parents of children under 18 should be tried for any crime their child commits as well, looser pays (lawsuits the looser has to pay for both parties legal fees etc), line item veto, term limits in congress.

    None of this will happen.

      

  178. 178Anonymous on Jul 13, 2009 at 6:29 am:

    If you don’t believe any of this is true go to maafa21.com and check out more evidence of this mentality.

      

  179. 179NH on Jul 13, 2009 at 6:38 am:

    Thank you for this research!

    What is happening today is so obvious that it can be summed up in a few words: George Orwell’s Nightmare.

    If this and recent comments praising eugenics by Ruth Bader Ginsberg don’t alarm you, you are not thinking.

    Everything, through forced legislation under threat of martial law, and scare tactics such as global warming, is in the process of being put under federal control; education, food, water, health, energy, money (cashless — no transaction will go untaxed) and then will be placed under global control via some corresponding UN treaty — I have been saying this for years.

    If you don’t have your card with the ‘chip’ you will not be able to buy or sell… (the bible got that right!)

    States now need ‘states rights’ reaffirmed more than ever to escape this Orwellian nightmare that is about to be realized.

    Witness the kind of pure NUT-JOBS that are working within the Obama administration! Obama himself is fully invested in this
    planetary philosophy.

      

  180. 180NH on Jul 13, 2009 at 6:49 am:

    @Joseph Miller: Obama is just so bad for everything else, it doesn’t matter what he SAYS. He’s a liar….

    And it was CONSERVATIVES who freed the slaves and DEMOCRATS who believe in segregation, euthenasia, etc etc. Please read your history!

    Visit the national black republicans website…. they have it all written there.

      

  181. 181Joe H on Jul 13, 2009 at 7:38 am:

    Hello zombietime,

    I’m the one who linked both your original piece and Infowars in the same blog.

    You are right, your analysis did come first and I apologize if I gave the wrong impression.

    Joe

      

  182. 182Mr. H on Jul 13, 2009 at 8:27 am:

    Idiots….I’ve read the book everyone is referring to….the article has taken a lot (if not everything) out of context. What someone is willing to admit is plausible and what they actually would do are two different things. This man is not saying that he would do these things, but that they are merely plausible and something the world would/may have to do under certain circumstances. It’s people like you who try to re-interpret things to make it sound horrific. Just because this man is now in a powerful position does not mean he would enforce these bogus ideals. Please don’t be such jackasses….political views aside, common sense should have kicked in a long time ago. And what makes you think that just because this man wrote about the subject he would ever have the power to just make it so without having to seek approval or consent? I just take joy in the fact that none of you assholes will ever be president or make any type of decisions. Have a good day.

      

  183. 183Anonymous on Jul 13, 2009 at 8:47 am:

    Start by steralizing these people.

      

  184. 184Tyris on Jul 13, 2009 at 9:34 am:

    NINJA’d: Well, looks like Zombie beat me to it. I tried to send this about 5 hours ago, my time, but my ISP was being a pain. Now on lunch break, I have the time to post it. As expected, Zombie’s already covered most of the bases, but I figured I’d post this anyway.

    Josef #151

    I don’t know, Mr Miller, whether you are trying to follow in the footsteps of Mr P.T. Barnum with an elaborate shell game, or whether you are following in the footsteps of Mr. Quixote de la Mancha as you tilt at windmill giants that exist only in your presumptions, but one of the reasons Zombie’s post is so effective and informing is that it deals specifically with the facts and evidence available.

    You state your own view as to what the ‘crux of the issue’ is and then come to a seperate conclusion. “I no longer think it’s productive, Senator, to focus on the optimum population of the United States” is not a disavowal of Holdren’s own extreme policies. Despite being under oath, it in no way renounces what he had previously claimed. He just says that “I don’t think it’s a good idea to focus on this right now.”

    But this minor little bait-and-switch is just the beginning of your work. Let’s continue:

    “Many of these statements come from people who are (I assume) strong supporters of such politicians as ex-Senator Rick Santorum” … followed by a cute little rant I have no desire to copy and paste the entirety of, since the basic premise is already false. You see, the difference between, say, Zombie and yourself, is that Zombie quotes directly from the source, only what they’ve said, and sets it out while giving his/her opinion on the matter. You, however, don’t even have quotes. You just immediately build up a large, complicated strawman based upon your own assumptions of what the opposition does or does not believe. The greater irony is that the example you give is of an EX-Senator… one who no longer has any grip on the levers of power, while giving a pass to a newly appointed representative of the government. Why is that?

    “I would also remind you that it was CONSERVATIVES who enforced the laws against “race mixing” and “miscegenation”.”
    Really? In 1967? Wow, that’s nice. I’d bet many conservatives here weren’t even born by that point. For that matter, since you’re on things that those ‘conservatives’ did, and I already doubt the veracity of your claim, where do you stand on the deplorable actions of LIBERALS from a previous age, in regards to, say, the detainment of Japanese-Americans into camps during WWII? Or are you too busy pointing fingers while trying to establish a moral high ground? This whole “moving of the goalposts” is a fun game, isn’t it?

    “Several others on this thread are presumably” If you quoted directly, sir, you wouldn’t have to presume. As it is, this portion of your rant is equally useless.
    “Others on this thread are perhaps big advocates”, followed by another strawman, in the same paragraph as the above quote. I like how you fail to quote anyone, and just build up a nice house of cards on assumption. Please continue, it’s good to have a contrast to hold up next to the original poster to see the difference in quality.

    “Other “defenders of freedom” have told me over the last eight years” This post hasn’t existed for 8 days, let alone 8 years. And here you go with assumptions and lack of reference material. But, hey, you manage to trot out the old pile of liberal memes and talking points that they’ve managed to get wrong, so I suppose this wasn’t about an educational comparison as much as it is about trying to promote your ‘side’ as more intelligent than its opposition.

    “Further, many on this thread attack the science behind concerns about global climate change.” Hey, finally, at least something relevant. No quotes, but, you know, I did see a little bashing of the Anthropocentric Global Climate Change Myth. With good reason. And you almost would have had some minor intellectual points here if you had followed through and offered up positive support of it, but then you run off and state “How many of you “defenders of science” are Young Earth Creationists who assert, contrary to all evidence and all reason, that the Earth is 6,000 years old?” My response would be: A) How many aren’t? -and- B) What would it matter if they aren’t trying to push their beliefs on you at the expense of more of your hard-earned money being stolen by the government to fund it?

    “believers in witchcraft (which necessitates receiving an exorcism to protect one’s self from it) or convinced that there are centers of “demonism” throughout the U.S.?”
    Who cares, if they aren’t pushing that on you or into law? They could believe in little space aliens abducting people or that George Bush has a weather control ray that aims hurricanes at certain cities for conspiratorial reasons so long as they don’t try and extort others to fund their beliefs.

    “but whenever scientific evidence goes against your preconceived notions, you go berserk. How can I respect that?”
    How can we respect someone who goes off and accuses people who have made no such claims as having done so? For that matter, how many people here have gone beserk and frothed at the mouth while slamming on their keyboard in a hastily-written neanderthal-like response to your post?

    “No, Obama did NOT support allowing babies born alive during abortions to be killed”
    More bait and switch? Or just sophistry? The law would have simply allowed abortionists to let them die. But ‘be killed’ is your wording.

    “Unhinged right-wingers call Obama a “socialist” for proposing to raise the top tax rate on the upper 5% from 36 to 39.5; for temporarily nationalizing LESS THAN ONE PER CENT of the economy, and for proposing a government option for health care insurance (one which DOES NOT call for the government to “take over” health care.) Again, how can I take the people who make such unfounded assertions seriously?”
    Hmm. Still not seeing direct quotes here. Besides, and I don’t have to presume, you’re saying that “Unhinged right-wingers” are using those specific reasons. If we were to do as you, and ASSUME this was truth, how does that apply unless you are attempting to label the people here “unhinged right-wingers”? I’ll be nice and “assume” that you aren’t, in which case you’re labelling some group of people who aren’t participating as doing something you disagree with. No surprise there. But how many of those “unhinged right-wingers” are being nominated for positions of power by the President? Oh right, none of them. I could go into detail as to how you’ve cherry-picked small portions to focus on rather than the overall effect, but I have no need to as you’ve already fallen under either category error (at best) or random ad hominem (at worst).

    “But the response to this nomination is so extreme and over the top as to make me glad that I left the Republican Party and the conservative movement 18 years ago. I think I made the right choice.”
    It’s not extreme to get rather annoyed at someone who sees no problem with using science and polticis in heavy-handed fashion to force compliance upon the entire human population in limiting their reproductive choices. You’ll notice no one has talked about harming Holdren, or President Obama, or their children, or their ability to have children, or anyone else. The reverse is not true in Holdren’s case, however, as he has published works that show no self-criticism or self-reflection on the morality and ethics of controlled sterilization of human populations, among many other disturbing ideas.

      

  185. 185Thinkboutit on Jul 13, 2009 at 9:53 am:

    This is all in time with what has been said to happen “Prophetic end times”

    I know we don’t agree with what they are doing, but God is the one who sets up and He is the one who takes down in positions.

    We cannot stop what has already been fortold.

    If you read Revelations, you will see this.

    Thank you Z for putting the truth out there for us to see..
    But we dont fight against Flesh and Blood..

    THANK GOD JESUS IS COMING BACK SOON..
    to Rule and Reign in His Righteousness and HOLINESS..
    GOD IS GOOD.. those who trust in Him will have His Peace
    thru it all…

    Bible is the Ultimate Final Truth

      

  186. 186KennX on Jul 13, 2009 at 9:57 am:

    Thank you for posting the scans of these documents… as they refute basically your entire point. Did you happen to look at the footnotes for each of the ‘quotes’ that you mention? No? I didn’t think so. You will see that none of them are by Holden… In fact, why do you think that Holden (a physicist) would be writing the biology part of a textbook when the other authors are biologists? Don’t you think that what they had HIM actually contribute to their book was information about energy resources rather than subjects for which he has no expertise?

    Can you name ANYTHING like this in ANY of the numerous writings HE has published? You are citing a part of a 32 year old book that he contributed to… And then only quoting areas where the Ehrlichs wrote or quoted others.

    LAME.

    Using the same tactic:

    “Happy shall he be, that taketh
    and dasheth thy little ones against
    the stones.” –Psalms 137:9

    Direct quote from the Bible… which is the Word of God. Since Jesus and God are One…
    Jesus promotes killing infants by smashing their heads open on the rocks… Right?

    Oh, you don’t like that comparison?

    I guess you are just upset that THIS administration uses real scientists instead of the lunatic fringe who believe the world is 6,000 years old.

      

  187. 187Frank Creed on Jul 13, 2009 at 10:23 am:

    I wonder what I thought would heal the world’s woes thrity years ago? Sensationalism, or substantive problem?

      

  188. 188zombie on Jul 13, 2009 at 10:40 am:

    #185 KennX

    Please, I encourage you to write some more comments. Nothing better exposes the idiocy of left-wing ideologues than their own words.

      

  189. 189Anonymous on Jul 13, 2009 at 12:27 pm:

    I read your article and it scared the bejabbers out of me. I knew we had crazies but this guy takes the cake – he even looks evil. I wonder if he has children? Probably not and I thank God if he doesn’t.

    I think we need a new Constitution – based on the old one but brought up todate – for instance, we no longer need the Amendment to give women the right to vote – or to free the blacks – or…….but we need a new something as a light people can follow and rally around. We have so many organizations asking for money that each one doesn’t have enough – but if we combine our forces……….there

      

  190. 190Kristopher on Jul 13, 2009 at 1:48 pm:

    Do dumbasses like Holder even think about the long-term effects of their policies?

    Maybe someone should rent them a copy of Matt Judge’s Idiocracy.

    Exactly what is their shiny ecofriendly ZPG world going to look like when demographics and illegal immigration replaces that 52% of the votors with a majority of third-worlder immigrants?

    Does this idjit have a clue about what happens to environmental issues in the third world? Or what happens to lefty loudmouth minorities?

      

  191. 191nadadhimmi on Jul 13, 2009 at 5:05 pm:

    I think Obama will euthanize (murder) anyone that looses the ability to pay taxes to his regime. Other than “people of color” that is.

      

  192. 192average_guy on Jul 13, 2009 at 6:27 pm:

    #185 KenX:

    That verse from Psalms is out of context and distorted. To put it in proper context, give us verses 7 through 9, or maybe the whole nine verses of Psalm 137.

    Interestingly, and possibly OT, On Don Maclean’s American Pie album there is a song titled “Babylon” that is based on this Psalm. http://www.don-mclean.com/?p=10

    BTW KenX, this imprecatory Psalm is telling about how Babylon is repaid for what they did to the people of Israel while they were in captivity, a measure of justice for Israel after they had suffered many atrocities. The comparison you made is simply not valid.

      

  193. 193Ken on Jul 13, 2009 at 7:26 pm:

    I love Don Maclean.

      

  194. 194Anonymous on Jul 14, 2009 at 7:14 am:

    Did I miss the statement in which you received permission from the publisher to print long excerpts? I think you violated copyright laws.

      

  195. 195zombie on Jul 14, 2009 at 3:18 pm:

    # 193 Anonymous

    Did I miss the statement in which you received permission from the publisher to print long excerpts? I think you violated copyright laws.

    Then sue me.

    Better yet, encourage Holdren to sue me, since he’s the copyright holder.

    Oh yes, I’d love the publicity! Then, after I win because excerpts like this fall squarely under the concept of “fair use” and can be reprinted for the purpose of review or analysis, I can have a big laugh.

      

  196. 196zombie on Jul 14, 2009 at 3:21 pm:

    And to everyone who has been frozen out of this thread for the last day or two — apologies! zombietime experienced a traffic avalanche overload due to incoming links from literally thousands of blogs, and I guess my servers melted down. This is the first time I’ve been able to access my own site in over 24 hours. Hopefully things will calm down a bit now.

      

  197. 197J on Jul 14, 2009 at 4:34 pm:

    Green Jobs Czar Van Jones Is a Communist and Black Nationalist with an arrest record

    http://www.moonbattery.com/archives/2009/07/green_jobs_czar.html

      

  198. 198Formercorpsman on Jul 14, 2009 at 6:29 pm:

    Superb work Zombie.

      

  199. 199Citizen Zyro on Jul 14, 2009 at 8:13 pm:

    everytime holdren opens his mouth somewere on the earth charlton heston is screaming “ITS PEOPLE!!!!” but seriously this guy is so extreme he rivals scientology on the crazy scale and the fact that our “great” jack off president is apointing czars seriously and actually makes me fearful. i am affraid a second holocaust is on the horizon…..

      

  200. 200Laura on Jul 14, 2009 at 9:53 pm:

    Things like this make me deeply, deeply sorry that I had two children instead of ten.

      

  201. 201ann on Jul 14, 2009 at 10:02 pm:

    If the Erlich’s sincerely believed in their false overpopulation views, then they would be able to apply the ‘golden rule’ If they are asking others to “jump” the boat and sacrifice for societ’s good, then they would be the first in line. How selfish is it to ask others to die when you wouldn’t ask it of yourself or you wouldn’t be here sharing opinions in the first place of someone somewhere thought you were causing overpopulation? No, overpopulation is a myth, and the leaders of forced methods would not apply their own thinking to themselves first, which is the first red flag of its insincerity and falsehood, like all other injustices.

    Also, Holdren’s statement that the Constitution doesn’t give a right to reproduce, well if we continue in that line of thinking, it doesn’t give a right to forced abortion, either. The Constitution writers wrote in a context that was clearly against forced and compulsory solutions. The Constitution writers were also mostly Christian and would never supported such horrifying solutions.

    Yes, overpopulation is a myth. visit http://www.pop.org/20090117803/our-president or just http://www.pop.org Anyone who honestly searches to find out, will discover its a myth. Thanks for exposing Holdren for his horrifying thoughts on population control. I’ve also heard the Texas fact of everyone in the world fitting there, I just haven’t done the research/math to doublecheck it, is highly likely since TX is so huge.

      

  202. 202Starless on Jul 15, 2009 at 5:05 am:

    #125 TomB

    Then perhaps in a thread discussing Holdren, it might be prudent to clarify your position?

    Instead of jumping to conclusions based on a comment which was intended to be informative, try looking up the thread at post 54 and you should get a pretty clear idea of where I stand on Holdren.

    You missed my point. You embarrassed (dare I say “schooled”) yourself repeating the George Bush – scanner story, so you obviously aren’t that “well aware of the pitfalls of Wikipedia”, whether or not you got it from wiki.

    WTFever. I didn’t miss your point. I didn’t claim Wikipedia was definitive — that would be why the link I provided has the qualifier “Reasonably decent” not “super accurate so you can quote it until the end of time”. This is a discussion on a blog post, not a graduate school course.

    My point to Tracy Twyman was:

    1. “Science czar” is a made up MSM headline term.

    2. There has been a presidential science advisor for 60-some years.

    3. Because the feds spend hundreds of billions of dollars on science and technology, it’s important for the president to have someone to advise him on the topic.

    As far as Bush 41 is concerned, I saw the video at the time and the guy sure looked amazed. Whether he really was or not, I really don’t care and it wasn’t the core of the comment anyway. If you’re offended as a conservative that I wrote something less than complimentary about a Bush, then I’ll remind you that the Bushes are blue-blood, Ivy League liberal pretenders to the conservative throne.

    If you want to have an actual discussion, then try to discuss instead of throwing grenades. If you’re just trolling for a flame war, I’ll happily get just as nasty as you.

      

  203. 203Anonymous on Jul 15, 2009 at 7:48 pm:

    Ken, (the original)
    You sound like a Communist party apparatchik. I am sure that China’s policy of forced sterilization is a success. Everything is hunky-dory over there, nothing to worry about. Amerika should try it!
    Your sources get there information from whom? China? The U.N.? Where do they get there info>? How come most of the babies adopted in the United States are girls? How come there is kidnapping rings in China which operate only to make money of of stealing young women and girls?
    Some history: In China traditionaly Men were more valuable. Why? The family name lived on.
    Combine that with China’s family planning from the 1960′s onward. (Families penalized severely if they had more than one child) and what do you have? More boys than girls.
    Dont believe me? Look. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5953508

      

  204. 204Atash on Jul 15, 2009 at 8:19 pm:

    Thank you for posting this excellent page. I had heard the claims that Mr. Holdren and his associates did not really write any of the controversial statements attributed to them. Thanks to your scholarship I see that these activists are lying.

    Apparently the scheme of using ecology as a cover story for totalitiarian economic and social control was the brainchild of Robert Heilbroner (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Heilbroner ). Apparently he was concerned that Communism as a means of economic and social control would fail, and that therefor a new paradigm would be needed, that would seem to be compatible with a democratic capitalistic (in the “corrupt, crony” sense) society.

      

  205. 205Amy on Jul 15, 2009 at 9:08 pm:

    Ok, we get it ken you work for the Chinese govt. You’re doing a great job btw, hope they approve you for a second child for all the propaganda you are working so hard to sell! Over-population IS a myth, if you want to get a good perspective on it watch this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU&feature=related

      

  206. 206Amy on Jul 15, 2009 at 9:21 pm:

    I just had a thought. What else can Ken say but positive things about China? I mean if he’s in China using their internet, he could get arrested for denouncing what is happening there (hey, another positive about China right?). Freedom of speech is just SO unproductive, first you get critics, then you get bad press, pretty soon you have a full-fledged civil war on your hands and then it’s nothing but work, work, work to get all those peasants back in line!

      

  207. 207J on Jul 15, 2009 at 9:41 pm:

    Harsanyi: Science fiction czar

    http://www.denverpost.com/harsanyi/ci_12837799

      

  208. 208Anonymous on Jul 16, 2009 at 3:38 am:

  209. 209sail ron on Jul 16, 2009 at 9:18 am:

    Obama needs to stop all this spending and start reducing the size of government and get rid of his Czars what is he paying them. and where does he get them does he even know there background or does he even care.
    Sail ron

      

  210. 210Jennifer Morse on Jul 16, 2009 at 10:07 am:

    what has Holdren done or said since 1977? if he is really a dangerous anti-natal anti-human zealot, he must have done something to show it more recently than thirty years ago. if he hasn’t done or said anything of note since 1977, that says, well, he hasn’t done much and isn’t ready for the responsibilities of Czardom (whatever those may be.)

      

  211. 211Formercorpsman on Jul 16, 2009 at 11:02 am:

    Again, an excellent job. Keep it coming.

    Very thorough.

      

  212. 212Lilly on Jul 16, 2009 at 2:59 pm:

    From the forerunner book:

    Human Ecology: Problems and Solutions
    Book by Paul R. Ehrlich, Anne H. Ehrlich, John P. Holdren; W. H. Freeman, 1973

    Chapter 8: (p. 256)

    Population Limitation

    Involuntary Fertility Control. The third approach to population control is that of involuntary fertility control. Several coercive proposals deserve discussion, mainly because societies may ultimately have to resort to them unless current trends in birth rates are rapidly reversed by other means. Some involuntary measures may prove to be less repressive or discriminatory, in fact, than some socioeconomic measures that have been proposed.

    One idea that has been seriously proposed in India is to vasectomize all fathers of three or more children. This was defeated not only on moral grounds but on practical ones as well: there simply were not enough medical personnel available even to start on the eligible candidates, let alone deal with the new recruits added each day! But India’s government may well have to resort to some coercive method sooner or later, unless famine, war, or disease takes the problem out of its hands. There is little time left for educational programs and social change, and the Indian population is probably too poor for economic measures (especially penalties) to be effective.

    Other proposals include compulsory sterilization of mothers after two or three children, or compulsory implantations of steroid capsules at puberty with removal for childbearing by official permission only, perhaps combined with baby licenses. These are technically feasible, but suffer from a number of drawbacks. Technically impossible today, although theoretically feasible, are suggestions that sterilants or fertility-reducing agents be added to staple food or drinking water. These possibilities are generally the least acceptable to most people, although they might have advantages over the others in being far easier and more economical to administer and much less likely to be discriminatory in their consequences.

    Compulsory control of family size is an unpalatable idea, but the alternatives may be much more horrifying. As those alternatives become clearer to an increasing number of people in the 1970s, we may well find them demanding such control. A far better choice, in our view, is to begin now with milder methods of influencing family size preferences, while ensuring that the means of birth control, including abortion and sterilization, are accessible to every human being on Earth within the shortest possible time. If effective action is taken promptly, perhaps the need for involuntary or repressive measures can be averted.

    Population Control: The Outlook. No form of population control, even the most coercive or repressive, will succeed for long unless individuals understand the need for it and accept the idea that humanity must limit its numbers. Therefore, the ultimate key to population control lies in changing human attitudes concerning reproductive behavior and goals in all societies.

      

  213. 213ladycatnip on Jul 16, 2009 at 3:12 pm:

    zombie,

    Thank you for your countless hours of research and digging – this is amazing. This man is e.v.i.l. and espouses beliefs that are completely from the pit of hell. “Planetary Regime”; forced abortions; single women having their kids taken away; drinking water containing sterilization drugs…Obama’s choice pick for Science Czar. That says volumes about Obama.

      

  214. 214Ken on Jul 16, 2009 at 3:14 pm:

    #203:

    “You sound like a Communist party apparatchik”

    You must be new to this blog…

    “I am sure that China’s policy of forced sterilization is a success”

    China doesn’t have a policy of forced sterilization. I’ve already quoted the law. If you don’t believe me: TS for you.

    “Your sources get there information from whom? China? The U.N.? Where do they get there info”

    I don’t know, maybe you should ask them? People quote sources to prove that they’re not lying. But the source of a source is something else. If you’d like to find out where their info comes from I suggest that you ask them. I quoted mine, so obviously I wasn’t just making it all up.

    “How come most of the babies adopted in the United States are girls?”

    Because naive Western morons believe the garbage floating around about China and think they’re “rescuing” baby girls by adopting them. How self-important of them.

    “How come there is kidnapping rings in China which operate only to make money of of stealing young women and girls?”

    To make money by selling women and girls into prostitution or forced marriages, duh! What does that have to do with the OCP?

    “In China traditionaly Men were more valuable. Why? The family name lived on”

    Learn something about China, will you? Asian women don’t even change their names when they get married and parents have the legal option to choose either the husband or wife’s family name when their kids are born. My kid has my wife’s family name.

    “More boys than girls”

    I think I already mentioned that that was due largely to the hepatitis epidemic. The researcher said that that accounted for more than 75% of China’s “lost women.” The source is up there somewhere in this thread.

    #205

    “we get it ken you work for the Chinese govt”

    I’m not even a Chinese citizen, how could I work for the government? Although it would be nice to get paid for this.

    “hope they approve you for a second child for all the propaganda you are working so hard to sell”

    I count as a “minority” and my wife is an only child and she comes from a rural family, so I can have as many kids as I want. Ever heard of Rabiya Kadeer? She’s got 11 kids. Approval for children…what a joke. You morons will believe anything.

    “What else can Ken say but positive things about China? I mean if he’s in China using their internet, he could get arrested for denouncing what is happening there”

    ::eye roll:: Oh god. I wont even bother with this one. I’ll just suggest that you learn Chinese and then go read Tianya or the Myspace BBS. You’ll see plenty of people denouncing the government.

      

  215. 215Lilly on Jul 16, 2009 at 3:25 pm:

    Very interesting too is the Holdren/Commoner controversy:

    Holdren early on exhibited an unlovely tendency to try to enforce ideological conformity on his fellow scientists and activists. Back in 1972, he and Ehrlich disagreed with environmentalist Barry Commoner on whether population or technology was worse for environment. This dispute exploded into the public when Commoner disclosed a letter Ehrlich and Holdren had sent to numerous scientific colleagues revealing that the two had pressed Commoner not to debate in public which of the factors was most important because that would undermine the realization of environmental goals.

    Commoner was outraged that the two wanted to shut down debate and enforce an environmentally correct united front. If this is what Holdren would attempt to do to an errant fellow environmentalist, it’s no surprise the fury he visits upon those who don’t accept the environmental litany of doom, such as Bjorn Lomborg, author of TheSkeptical Environmentalist.

    http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/03/holdren-obama-science-opinions-contributors_0203_ronald_bailey.html

    The practices to silence people with whom they disagree haven’t changed.

      

  216. 216Marauder on Jul 16, 2009 at 3:47 pm:

    “Sure, I could imagine a bunch of drunken guys sitting around shooting the breeze, expressing these kinds of forbidden thoughts; who among us hasn’t looked in exasperation at a harried mother buying candy bars and soda for her immense brood of unruly children and thought: Lady, why don’t you just get your tubes tied already?”

    Actually – me. I’d probably think, “Lady, why don’t you stop being such a crappy parent?”

    John Holdren is a ghoul, and it scares me that Obama seems to love radicals who believe in blowing things up (Bill Ayers) and forced abortions (this guy) and shouting for God to damn America (Jeremiah Wright). I blame the mainstream media and celebrity culture that Obama got elected – all anyone wanted to say was, oh, wouldn’t it be so nice to have a black president, and this one makes such good speeches! Most people didn’t care that he was a freshman senator whose only feasible accomplishments were two autobiographies. If he was Barry O’Bama, a white guy of the same age and with the same credentials, the idea of his becoming president at this stage of his political career would have been a joke. Maybe in another ten or fifteen years, people would have said, when he’s actually DONE something. Now we’re stuck with a president who’s not only inexperienced, but also seems to have an unending supply of creepy associates.

      

  217. 217Ken on Jul 16, 2009 at 5:11 pm:

    “Now we’re stuck with a president who’s not only inexperienced, but also seems to have an unending supply of creepy associates”

    Now I finally get to say what’s been said to me more times than I could possibly count:

    If you don’t like, leave.

      

  218. 218ladycatnip on Jul 16, 2009 at 5:44 pm:

    #60 gus

    “Has it occurred to any of you just how moronic Holdrens postulations were 30 years ago, yet our dimwitted Mulatto thinks he should be in charge of science. Maybe Bill Ayers should run the Peace Corps? For the love of God, the man in charge of the IRS didn’t pay his own taxes.”

    We are experiencing the fatigue factor. Obama has bombarded this nation with one thing after another (change!), a string of candidates that are highly questionable and controversial – after a while we just snooze. Business as usual. Obama gets his way or he bullies, threatens and intimidates and of course most folks are pretty sheep-like and fall into lockstep behind him. No one wanted to question his associations as a candidate, and no one is questioning his choices as our president.

    We’d better wake up.

      

  219. 219Lilly on Jul 16, 2009 at 10:05 pm:

    #zombie

    From the Senate hearing everyone gets the impression “that he was only 26 years old when he had hold such views”. This is correct insofar as it is related to the question of senator Vitter:

    “One is from 1971, an
    article with Paul Ehrlich, titled Global Ecology, in which you predicted
    that, “some form of eco-catastrophe, if not thermonuclear war, seems
    almost certain to overtake us before the end of the century.” Do you
    think that was a responsible prediction?”

    But we should take into consideration that he was 33 years old when “Ecoscience…” was published. So, when did he stop to hold such views?

      

  220. 220Anonymous on Jul 17, 2009 at 1:11 am:

    Considering that most black babies are without father,wouldn`t Holdren`s plan pretty much make that race vanish in due time?

      

  221. 221Steve on Jul 17, 2009 at 3:16 am:

    Why did all senators vote his comfirmation in unaniminty ? He got every single repub vote ! Something here makes no sense !

      

  222. 222cmb on Jul 17, 2009 at 7:11 am:

    Funny, you don’t seem to have any evidence at all that Holdren is recommending, advocating, or doing anything but mentioning possibilities that might exist. In fact, some governments have adopted them on their own.

    That must be why you had to waste time redefining each thing he said. =)

      

  223. 223greg muthafucken pro life till the day i die jacob on Jul 17, 2009 at 8:55 am:

    in private they’re anti human, self hating, cancerous trash trying to justify the extermination of their fellow man, but in public they pretend to be the exact opposite. your not “elite” oprah, your not “elite” obama, or soros, gates or buffet. elite means your rockefeller, rothschild, warburg, windsor, oranje nassau. your just puppets and functionaries carrying out their orders and your own family was drinking flouridated water well before the world ever knew who you were or before you became “elite”. once they’re finished with you, you’ll be exterminated as well. the rest of us may be slaves, but at least we die on our feet than live on our knees sucking cock. haha

      

  224. 224Anonymous on Jul 17, 2009 at 9:40 am:

    Ken, Why don’t you respond to this you Communist stooge.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5953508

      

  225. 225ThurmanG on Jul 17, 2009 at 9:46 am:

    Since when does merely mentioning many aspects of an issue constitute advocacy of or “belief in” each of those aspects? Your analysis of and hysteria about what you claim are “his beliefs” are wholly unsupported by the passages you reference as proof of your claims. By your reasoning a medical textbook’s author would be recommending that all people receive all of the treatments and surgeries and medications “recommended” by the book… Perhaps the bible, by your reasoning, “recommends” every action by every one of it’s characters; certainly a disturbing thought but fortunately the reasoning behind your premise is complete nonsense so there’s nothing to worry about.

      

  226. 226Marauder on Jul 17, 2009 at 11:27 am:

    “Now I finally get to say what’s been said to me more times than I could possibly count:

    If you don’t like, leave.”

    Honey, take it up with the people who said it to you, not me. Besides, some loser from the Chicago political machine isn’t enough to make me leave the country my ancestors fought to preserve.

      

  227. 227Shii on Jul 17, 2009 at 2:29 pm:

    So, let’s just get this straight. Obama’s science guy wrote a book that described possible solutions for overpopulation without resorting to anarchy and starvation. The solutions included stuff that’s currently implemented in China.

    You’re freaking out about this?

    Well, I guess that’s what Republicans love to do.

      

  228. 228Richard on Jul 17, 2009 at 3:50 pm:

    The statements Holdren made reveal a fundamental stupidity that is not easily outgrown.

    People such as Holdren have an immature view of the world. They easily fall for predictions of doom, particularly when these claims express or imply moral failures on the parts of others (never themselves). A common theme is the fallibility of mankind as being hopeless in trying to improve the world without the control and direction of these self-appointed superior beings. The opportunity to express moral outrage and the prospect of taking heroic, world-changing actions intoxicate them. Their self-praise and flimsy rectitude dictate that neither they nor anyone else examine their assumptions and predictions with facts and logic. They demand we quickly reverse whatever malignant process is at hand, with them being among the privileged few who will exercise that power. For all their moralizing, they lack a fundamental moral vision that respects the rights of others, honors inquiry and values truth.

      

  229. 229sunni amorosa on Jul 17, 2009 at 3:53 pm:

    Read it. It is scary. I am so scared. Why is Obama hiring this man Joh Holdren? Help us o Lord.

      

  230. 230Morrisminor on Jul 17, 2009 at 9:45 pm:

    Alarmist and fanatics seem to seek out each other to justify panic and outrage

      

  231. 231Noah Vaile on Jul 18, 2009 at 7:40 am:

    Evil. Evil, evil, EVIL. All the euphemisms and intellectualizations result in nothing more than a homicidalist wrapped in sheepskin. This is what our nation has come to. Elections have consequences.

      

  232. 232Anonymous on Jul 18, 2009 at 8:25 am:

    It is in fact a very good situation that global economy is already collapsing, influence of international organizations falling, resources are depleting and global population is also on the brink of natural collapse, regardless how ugly that might be in practice.

    That should finish off progressive ideology before new Holocaust or Pol Pot’s Cambodia on global scale is generated.

    It is sad that such a loon is in charge of US science policy.
    However it is good that actually there is no time left to build international agreements needed for implementation of such a madness.
    The reality is that US and global economy in general is already broke and American international influence is diminishing.
    The faster it all goes to hell, the better.

      

  233. 233DDGIBBS on Jul 18, 2009 at 9:37 am:

    Sounds like Soylent Green enforced by the Gestapo. Can it be the Anti-Christ is now a CZAR ???

      

  234. 234mindboggled on Jul 18, 2009 at 1:59 pm:

    Disgraceful, Barbaric and another “CZAR” in this incredibly uncivilized so called Governmental try for total power over the people!!!! It never once in my lifetime, with all the many experiences and atrocities that have occurred, ever entered my concepetion that anything even close to this kind of inconcievable horror could come to the soil of our Beloved Country. Please God Bless America!!!!

      

  235. 235Anonymous on Jul 19, 2009 at 7:32 am:

    this guy is insane and should be monitured by the FBI and CIA. He is a pottential terrorist. Anyone who suggests these as policys should be imedditly removed from office and permintently never allowed to hold a public office.

    I have a friend whoes husband died recently in an accident. They have a 9 year old boy. If I am reading this right, she will be forced to give up her child and then go through a adotion process and prove she can take care of her own child in order to get him back. Does This seem right to you. And what about gays and lesbiens that have children and what about men who are single parents. Also who decieds who is undesirable. If any one else had said these perposels the would have been immediatly under investigation by the FBI and CIA. President Obama is the only reason this man is not under investigation. I say the czar program is unconstitutionall and should be banned. I also call for the immediat removal from office President Obama and his staff and any one he appointed to office. That is as far as I will go.

      

  236. 236Pastor Dave Smith on Jul 20, 2009 at 7:03 am:

    Sir,
    I do a “New for Discerning Christians” article in our church bulletin. I’d like to permission to share a small portion (quoting Holdren) for one of the articles. May I? I am horrified that a man like that could slip through and be appointed to a government position! God help us all!

      

  237. 237zombie on Jul 20, 2009 at 8:23 am:

    #236 Pastor Dave Smith:

    Go right ahead. You are free to quote from Holdren or the essay. Heck, thousands of other blogs and news sites used whole portions of my essay without even asking. You’re the first person to ask permission! And as for quoting from the book — that’s permissable too, under a legal principle called “Fair Use” whereby one can cite sections of a printed work in order to review or analyze it.

      

  238. 238Anonymous on Jul 20, 2009 at 11:50 am:

    Excellent job zombie. Keep up the good work!

    This man, Holdren, is a monster.

      

  239. 239Anonymous on Jul 21, 2009 at 9:30 am:

    Here are some interesting things I found about this wack jobs, Ehrlich & Holdren: http://parrotpatriot.wordpress.com/2009/07/21/paul-ehrlich-and-john-holdren-the-elite/

      

  240. 240Anonymous on Jul 21, 2009 at 3:05 pm:

    @ Rob #24

    You can’t dispute the math of dividing people by square miles, but those people have to eat. And they eat vegetables and grains, which require farmland, and meat, which requires grazing land, all of which are at or nearing capacity and there is less each year (desertification) and they aren’t making any new arable land to speak of.

    Those people also need water, (not salt water), which comes from rivers and lakes, which are not all located in Texas, but are spread across the globe. Unfortunately, most people don’t live in places like Wisconsin, where water is plentiful, but in places where it is becoming increasingly rare. In your posited Texas that holds everyone on Earth, where will the water be trucked in from?

    Also, all those people buy TVs and cars and clothes, and washing machines, and that requires mining equipment and factories and warehouses (which aren’t located in Manhattan) and that requires two things: 1) Space for the industrial facilities, and 2) resources to build the stuff, and the stuff to make the stuff with. That must be mined and harvested.

    All of these things is what is leading to deforestation, desertification, etc. Go to Google Maps and look at satellite maps of rain forests in Brazil and Indonesia, looks at the clear cut scars, look at how little is left and how fast its being cut down.

    The issue of physical space is a red herring. There is about 45 million square miles of land on Earth, excluding Antarctica and excluding land that is under water. By your own figures, at the density of Manhattan, the Earth could “hold” 3 trillion, 384 billion people and some change. Can you even conceive of the number of Earths’ resources that would require?

    The population of Manhattan requires many thousands of times its own area in resources to support it.

    Your little theory is specious, illogical, and irrelevant. Try reasoning at a level beyond that of a seventh grader, you might like it.

      

  241. 241Anonymous on Jul 21, 2009 at 3:06 pm:

    @ Rob 24 And yes, I know you aren’t literally talking about putting people in Texas, but that doesn’t change the logic of my response to your “argument.”

      

  242. 242Morgen on Jul 21, 2009 at 10:36 pm:

    The Washington Times article quotes an Administration official as saying:

    “Dr. Holdren addressed this issue during his confirmation when he said he does not believe that determining optimal population is a proper role of government.”

    However, this statement directly contradicts a Memo that Holdren authored to then President Bush where he directly advocates for an increased government role in education and family planning (contraception AND abortion) for the specific purpose of managing population growth. See:

    http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/energy-climate%20challenge%20(aspen%20inst.%202000).pdf#page=15

    I tipped this to the Washington Times reporter as well. Thought you and your readers would be interested in this. (Great work on this story!)

      

  243. 243Anonymous on Jul 22, 2009 at 6:45 am:

    Obama doesn’t really believe in choice for women. He said that if one of his daughters “made a mistake” he didn’t want her “punished with a baby.”

    If one of his girls gets pregnant, will she feel like coming to dad for help?

      

  244. 244Anonymous on Jul 22, 2009 at 6:49 am:

    President Obama’s own mother got pregnant with him when she was a teeager. If his mother had thought like Obama, he would have been aborted instead of elected President.

      

  245. 245LonMax on Jul 22, 2009 at 11:56 am:

    Holy crap, you and your followers are morons. Ever heard of Snopes?

    http://scienceblogs.com/bioephemera/2009/07/description_misrepresented_as.php

    Do some research, and stop misrepresenting fact. Thumbs down on stumble…. hopefully it will never bring me back…

      

  246. 246zombie on Jul 22, 2009 at 4:07 pm:

    #245 LonMax

    Thanks for linking to that “Bioephemera” blog post, LonMax, because it represents the “best shot” the Left has given to refute my post. And when you actually read what she has to say, you’ll see their “best shot” misses the mark entirely. I especially recommend you go to the comments section of her post and read comments #26, #39, #44, #52, #53, #55, as well as many others, in which her readers dissect and refute her essay.

    Read the full text, not just the headlines.

      

  247. 247sierra on Jul 22, 2009 at 6:42 pm:

    Wow, zombie, thanks for linking that post. Jessica’s comment #55 pretty much does it for me, especially the paragraph starting “Fortunately…” To paraphrase: I’m glad Holdren was wrong. But it’s really understandable why he presented all those ghastly scenarios in an effort to scare us into thinking he was right. (She also presents two alternative ways authors of “Ecoscience” might have written their book, to which I’ll add a Third Way: get your data analysis right to begin with before you start going off the deep end on making predictions and recommendations.)

    I consider all the ghoulish stuff about forced abortions & sterilizations focused on here as tangential. I always thought your reputation as a scientist should be based on making accurate predictions based on your analysis of the relevant data. This point comes back to me again: compared to the intricacies of the Earth’s climate, the motivations that govern whether humans procreate turn out to be fairly simple, though not quite as simple as Ehrlich and Holdren imagined. To the extent that people have sufficient resources and that their well-being in old age is independent of their children’s direct material support, they have fewer children. Population growth can be characterized as a temporary problem for developing countries until their poeple achieve that basic level of security. The population of many developed countries, especially in Europe, is collapsing. America’s population is essentially flat when controlled for immigration. This is the basic point that Holdren and Ehrlich got wrong. Not just a little wrong, as in wrong on some of the outlying details, but thumpingly, ridiculously wrong on basic demographic trends, on the central ideas they put forth.

    I would have liked to see a question from Vitter framed around this point: “Given how ass-pullingly wrong you were about such a large question that is central your expertise in ecology, does that failure inform the level of confidence you assign to your current predictions over the effects of climate change?”

      

  248. 248sierra on Jul 22, 2009 at 6:53 pm:

    Sorry, it’s #56.

      

  249. 249Sandra on Jul 23, 2009 at 12:08 pm:

    I have no problem understanding Obama picking this schizophrenic as his science Czar. He has just picked another one who is worse, and thinks animals should have the right to file lawsuits, chimps should be able to take the stand and by sign language, testify. What is next. Why can’t Obama just pick some “normal” people? He doesn’t know any. Who could possibly take this nut case seriously on any issue whatsoever? I just want to send illegal immigrants back to Mexico. He probably wants to gas them all in a closed room. SICK MAN!!!!!!

      

  250. 250Darcy on Jul 23, 2009 at 3:45 pm:

    I think the proof is already at congress with this public health care plan that Obama is trying to push though in such a hurry. It will cover abortion and so if you think about it abortion will be covered by a government health plan so it won’t hardly cost the government anything to force abortions on woman that the government sees as an unfit parent. personnally I think John Holdrens mother and Obamas mother should have had an abortion. It would have saved America a lot of grief.

      

  251. 251Mark_GA on Jul 23, 2009 at 9:03 pm:

    Well, Holdren seems “half right”. There are too many humans on the planet. However, we don’t need to have the government do anything about it (or most any other over-hyped crisis – global finance, AGW (sic), etc). The planet will take care of itself. When any ecosystem reaches an unsustainable condition, some natural agent will balance it out (e.g., plagues, flu, unsuspected predators – zombies?-food/water shortage, or our most base instinic to kill each other) and reduce the offending species to a sustainable level. Or, a random event will occur – ask the dinosaurs. First, kill all the lawyers, which takes care of most of the Legislative Branch, then elect some politicians with the grace and fortitude to resurrect American freedoms and help the world help itself.

      

  252. 252Scott on Jul 24, 2009 at 8:31 am:

    To Ken (the Chinese Population Expert)

    Check this out, sir. Perhaps you just care to correct disinformation, but population control and its popularity is pretty much disinformation, as the Chinese have apparently been taught to believe one child only is the way to go. Now they will be taught a dfferent view because of the reasons I outlined above. Cheers!

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6726244.ece

      

  253. 253gcdaz on Jul 24, 2009 at 1:45 pm:

    Linked to your site. You might have to have someone else start your car for a while. I’m glad you got hold of this and exposed it. I cannot believe the Senate did not ask one question about this book.

      

  254. 254quakergirl on Jul 25, 2009 at 3:23 am:

    This book written by Holdren in the Obama admin. as well as Ehrlich in the Bush admin. proves that the Rockerfeller eugenicists were behind both parties. The Rockerfellers invented eugenics in this country in the early 1900s. They are behind the support of “pro-choice” which is what turned me against pro choice, knowing how the movement started and who is putting the money into it and why- to de populate the planet. Even though if you put all the people on the planet on the continent of Australia there would be room for every person to have 1 acre. And the rest of the planet would be empty. “Population control” is a madman’s rejection of the will of God and all Christian and other religion’s values. Overpopulation is a myth, perpetuated by urban “intellectuals. Why not go to the moon if it gets crowded on the earth? Although it is centuries away from being crowded.

      

  255. 255Anonymous on Jul 25, 2009 at 7:53 am:

    Chilling….and to think that this is one of the Czars who’ll be mandating our healthcare if their plan passes.

      

  256. 256Anonymous on Jul 25, 2009 at 1:39 pm:

    Earth not overpopulated you say? Maybe you can pile everyone in Texas but then it takes an average of 7 acres of land to sustain each person on earth.
    “The U.S. has 3.794 million square miles, of which 3.54 million square miles is land area (for a fast growing U.S. population of 300 million people as of the end of year 2006).
    That is only 8.09 acres per person in the U.S.
    However, only about a quarter of that is arable land.
    That means there are only about 2.02 acres per person of arable land in the U.S.
    In 2006, there was 1.15 acres of arable land per person, world-wide (i.e. 7.68 billion acres / 6.68 billion people).
    By 2039, there may be only 0.59 acres of arable land per person, world-wide (i.e. 7.68 billion acres / 13 billion people)”.
    Source: CIA Factbook

      

  257. 257karl fuchs on Jul 25, 2009 at 4:23 pm:

    Population control should start by deporting all illegal aliens and treasonous, insane scum such as John Holdren and his ilk. Are any of you folks still wondering why the forefathers of our republic included the Second Amendment in the Bill of Rights? Wonder no more!

      

  258. 258BCM on Jul 25, 2009 at 5:34 pm:

    I want to thank you for an excellent, well-written, well-researched, and informative site. Unlike most screaming bloggers, you remained respectful, direct, and logical as you laid out your solid and reasonable criticisms.

    I found myself alternately agreeing with you and with Holdren as I read your offering. I know that sounds strange, but I hope I can explain.

    First, I’m a child of the ’60′s. I read Paul Erlich’s “Population Bomb”, and was a great fan of “Soylent Green” (in which Edward G. Robinson’s character was born in 1951, the same year as me). To me there’s no doubt that those predictions of the human population exploding have proven correct. There are more and more worldwide demands for energy, food, water, shelter, and all the resources that we consume, and right now there is the reality of more than a billion people without access to clean water. We have seen on TV, but are unlikely to have personally experienced yet, the starvation, disease, and suffering that afflicts our less fortunate brothers and sisters in Africa and other places. That is no reason to assume that we are immune from it, however.

    What Erlich predicted in that book has come to pass…but only to an extent. The US is at 300 million population now. What’s to stop it from hitting 600 million or even a billion?

    The stark answer is…nothing. I won’t predict the year, but I will predict we’ll get there eventually. It’s inevitable.

    To back that up, I offer the following facts. The US population from the census was:
    1950 – 150,520,798
    1960 – 179,323,175
    1970 – 203,302,031
    1980 – 226,545,805
    1990 – 248,709,873
    2000 – 281,421,906

    We know the population is over 300,000,000 now, and although we won’t have final figures for another year or two, it is clear that our population has more than doubled in my lifetime, and it will double again within the lifetimes of most of those who are reading this now.

    One line I remember from Erlich’s work was that there were only two ways to control population. One can either decrease the birth rate or increase the death rate. It’s brutal, but absolutely true. It would be nice if there were other, more benign methods, but those are the only two choices available. Of the two, decreasing the birth rate is far more palatable than intentionally creating wholesale deaths through war or other means.

    Within that context and having read that work, I ask the reader whether s/he believes there is ever a point where the population becomes a threat that must be dealt with? Leaving aside all racial or social arguments, don’t sheer numbers dictate that at a certain point a population becomes unsustainable? That’s why China had to act to limit births. They simply had no choice but to do something.

    On the other hand, I absolutely agree with the site author that the options mentioned (I don’t think recommended is a fair word to use here) are draconian and are not the type of society that I would want to live in. There is no such thing as civil liberties if someone can drag a woman off for a tubal or an abortion, or a man off for a vascectomy. I can never see myself accepting that.

    In defense of both Erlich and Holdren, they were/are academics, and they were looking at a very large picture when speaking of the future. In a sense what they wrote has proven to be a prophetic warning of what has already happened, and what can only get worse without voluntary birth control and family planning.

    We’re still not at a point here in the U.S. where such things can even be contemplated, but just as China was forced to act, so will we be eventually.

    Using the same sense of fairness that the site author used when approaching this subject, I have to suggest that Holdren was doing what scientists do, which is to look at trends and try to evaluate and predict what will be, along with offering unpleasant but unavoidable solutions if the numbers get beyond control. While I don’t believe Holdren’s words are an accurate reflection of his views on liberty, I also think President Obama made a horrible choice in selecting a man with as much published baggage as Holdren has. It detracts from Obama’s agenda, and from his credibility.

    While I applaud Mr. Obama’s efforts to bring science instead of religious fundamentalism into decisionmaking, his primary decision of choosing Holdren in the first place is a disaster. Holdren should be asked to resign, and an equally qualified scientist should replace him. We need the independent, scientific view at the Presidential advisory level, but we don’t need it to come from a man like Holdren. His previously published work will always understandably create suspicion toward every recommendation he makes.

    I also believe that those readers horrified by what he wrote must ask themselves what can be done to avoid the doomsday scenario presented. If the population grows to a point where the basic needs of the citizens can no longer be provided because of the sheer weight of numbers, I think we can all agree that would be a disaster that would require action, no matter how unpleasant.

    The best we can hope for to avoid that inevitability is some measure of voluntary limitation on family size.

    Thank you again for a thought-provoking site.

      

  259. 259noname on Jul 25, 2009 at 7:04 pm:

    Hmm, very sad indeed. Reproduction must be controlled, and he was perfectly correct in his statements. Unlike most civilized countries, the US population growth is exponential. Simple minds may not be able to comprehend what that means, and with the US education in the state that it is in, I can understand why this country is on a collision course with disaster.

      

  260. 260REW on Jul 25, 2009 at 7:27 pm:

    This guy is a total wack job . It`s people like him that should not multiply , in fact he is a TERRORIST .

      

  261. 261Anonymous on Jul 25, 2009 at 8:42 pm:

    truth is there are to many people on the planet the world population should be maintained at around 500 million. I had a vasectomy when I was twenty three because I wanted to do my part to clean up the gene pool. My parent should not have had children and Im sorry to say that all my sibling have child that are nothing more than a bunch of degenerate monky’s flinging their poo at each other I at least had the common sense to have my self serilized my mother still does not speak to me that was ofer twenty years ago. The truth is there are many people on this earth for what ever reason just should not have childern but its not up to the govronment to deside who does and who does not.

      

  262. 262J. Hartshorn on Jul 25, 2009 at 10:30 pm:

    Found your site after being referred to it by my brother. So far have only read your piece on Holdren.

    Wow, you must have studied hard in your undergraduate course on logic / rhetoric, because you employ every trick in the book to twist the situation into a huge controversy out of absolutely nothing.

    I am preparing a response, including a full logical critique of your page, as well as snippets from my discussions with my brother, who got suckered into believing rhetoric like this, and references to the original book, which I will check out of the library next week. It may take some time for my full response, because there are so many twisted bits of logic in your page, and I do have more important things to do. I fear that others reading this will be similarly fooled, however, so I will contribute what I can, in hopes that it will make some small difference.

    For now, I will only point out four errors in your first two sentences:

    1. ‘says’ should be ‘said’; i.e., ‘said’ in 1977. This is what you’re talking about right? What he said in that book, not in a speech >after< being appointed to be Obama’s Science and Technology advisor? really, this is almost two linked errors.
    2. ‘needed’ – He never ‘said’ (see above) that such measures (were? are? your headline edits these clarifying words) ‘needed’, he merely said that some countries “may ultimately have to resort to them”. Quite different, no?
    3. “Book he authored” – he actually co-authored the book. So, you are trying to place the ‘blame’ for everything on him, rather than on all three authors. Why? Because he’s the one talking to Obama. So, you are deliberately distorting the truth, in order to make the controversy not only seem current (#1 and #2), but also to intensify its focus on Holdren.
    4. “Advocates for” – again, the book never ‘advocates’ for these measures. It merely describes measures that have been proposed (and failed, for ‘moral’ as well as practical reasons, as clearly stated in the book), and states that while some people may demand such controls to avoid even more horrible circumstances, the authors (note the plural) advocate [exact phrase: "A far better choice in our view is to..." (788)] use of non-coercive measures to obviate coercive measures.

    While you are waiting for the remainder, it would be helpful for your readers, I think, for you to state clearly exactly what your point is. In other words, why are you writing all of this anyway? Are you arguing that Holdren is not fit to serve? That Obama is a Eugenicist? In other words, what are _you_ advocating? Or are you just stirring the pot?

    I look forward to you answering these questions, and those to come, rather than moving on to simply creating a new controversy out of nothing. If you are committed to finding the truth, I think you won’t find that burdensome at all.

    Sincerely,

    J. Hartshorn / California

      

  263. 263zombie on Jul 26, 2009 at 10:29 am:

    #262 J. Hartshorn

    I strongly recommend that you spend a LOT of time trying to debunk my essay. Days, weeks — months if necessary. Better to have you doing that than something actually useful. What’s my goal with this essay? To keep people like you busy for as long as possible so you have less time and resources to promote the agenda of the Obama Administration.

    I am not saying that Obama is a eugenicist. Nor am I saying that Holdren is unfit to serve. In fact, I want Holdren to stay in office while most people continue to find him and his worldview distasteful, because by so doing he will tend to discredit Obama, and “drag down” his administration by being an unnecessary distraction.

    But it is not my role to render opinions about who should have what job. All I am doing is supplying some “data points,” and allowing other people to come to their own conclusions. Some, like you, will read the excerpts from Ecoscience and not be disturbed in the slightest. Others will come to different opinions.

    You’re confusing me with some kind of pundit who rants and raves and makes demands and condemns people and tries to twist policy. I don’t do that. I just supply the facts. I let others cope with or use those facts how they see fit.

    And no, I didn’t take logic or rhetoric back in college. Sorry.

    As for me “twisting the situation into a huge controversy out of absolutely nothing” — I didn’t turn this into a “huge controversy.” I am just one person, someone with no connections, no identity, no professional role, no credentials, not even a name. A “huge controversy” can only exist if thousands of individuals each personally choose to be outraged by something. I can’t force people to do anything — I’m not some kind of dictator. The controversy arose due to the evidence presented, not because I emotionally bullied people. If it was so easy to just “create a huge controversy” on a whim by snapping one’s fingers, then everyone would do it. How many bloggers go to extreme lengths to stir up emotions and controversies with every post? Most. Millions. And how many actually succeed in making a controversy? Very very few. Just a couple per year at most. Why? What distinguishes the successful blog posts from the countless unsuccessful ones? In almost all cases, because there’s something to the claims being made. The post must be able to stand on its own.

    If you don’t like what I wrote, feel free to write an opposing opinion — I encourage you. It’s a free country. And if your rebuttal is vigorous and entertaining, then maybe it will get some attention too. Good luck.

    But I should warn you: I too am working on a follow-up post about Holdren, and it will contain much much more damning information — so your task is about to get a lot bigger. By the time your rebuttal of my original essay comes out, it will be old news, and these newer more disturbing facts will make your analysis of the old facts be a moot point.

      

  264. 264J. Hartshorn on Jul 26, 2009 at 12:00 pm:

    You are right, it wasn’t you alone who made it into a big controversy; there were others as well and I should have distributed that criticism. Which I am in the process of doing. So, I would like to retract that criticism.

    so you _didn’t_ study logic in college…that was my other explanation for all of the errors. Which you didn’t respond to, btw…(and my reference to your college years was sarcasm, you realize of course).

    You say you merely present facts, but as your ‘anatomy of the photograph’ blog shows, ‘facts’ change based on how they are cropped. And you’ve done a lot of cropping of the 1977 text.

    I’m glad you admitted your goal is to drag town the Obama Administration; I was assuming that, but didn’t want to falsely accuse you. I think that’s referred to as an ‘ulterior motive’, and generally considered poor form when it comes to presenting facts and making arguments.

    As for keeping me busy so I can’t ‘promote the Obama agenda’ (curious as to what you think that is exactly), don’t worry. I know a red herring when I smell it. And this one surely stinks.

    so, have fun stirring the pot and sprinkling in ‘facts’. If the Senate can confirm his nomination, I doubt you’ll have much effect.

    peace,

    j.

      

  265. 265zombie on Jul 26, 2009 at 5:19 pm:

    #264 J. Hartshorn;

    You say I’ve “done a lot of cropping of the 1977 text,” referring to my earlier Anatomy of a Photograph essay as an illustration of your point. But there’s a big and fundamental difference between “cropping away” all the context as was done in that instance and in other cases where quotes truly were taken out of context, compared to what I did in my Ecoscience essay, in which I focused on specific passages but in every instance then provided the full context of each quote to let the reader decide if the context changed the meaning. That is totally unlike an unethical photographer who presents a cropped photo and then never shows you what was cropped off; if he showed you a cropped photo and then also showed you the uncropped original photo to demonstrate that nothing significant was missing, then that would in no way be unethical. In fact, the only reason that critics like you are able to criticize my presentation to begin with is because I provided the full context to which you can refer.

    I in fact pre-emptively addressed this very complaint of yours in the essay itself, correctly predicting that naysayers would falsely claim that I had taken the quotes “out of context” — so I pointed out that I had done no such thing. But apparently that hasn’t stopped plenty of you from baselessly accusing me anyway.

    And as to your other point, that me opposing the Obama Administration was some sort of secret “ulterior motive” that I was trying to hide from the reader — puh-leeze. Why would I possibly publish this essay if I was a supporter of the Obama Administration? What other motivation could I possibly have to write and publish this except to discredit the Obama Administration? That’s not an “ulterior” motive, that’s an up-front motive — one which is plainly evident from the essay itself and from the numerous anti-Obama posts elsewhere on my Web site. But just because I have a motive to damage the administration’s credibility in no way detracts from the truth (or lack thereof) of the essay itself. Whatever my motivation, the facts must stand or fall on their own.

    As for your mystification concerning what I mean by “the agenda of the Obama Administration” — well, it can’t be summed up very concisely since it is so broad-ranging (and I’m sure people will be writing entire books about it for decades to come), but I’m referring to the “obvious” criticisms that his detractors don’t like: An appeasement-based and weak-willed foreign policy which emboldens the world’s ill-intentioned bad guys; a socialistic (if not flat-out socialist) domestic economic policy, of increased government control over companies and industries affecting all citizens; out-of-control deficit-creation, tax increases, and wild spending sprees which will cripple our economy for many years to come; and an overall “identity politics” neo-Marxist social policy of government-sponsored political correctness. That’s the shorthand version; anything more detailed would require several more essays unto itself.

    Concerning your last comment: the Senate confirmed him, and basically no one realized it. The confirmation hearings went almost completely unnoticed by the American public. So while I obviously will have “no effect” in preventing him from being confirmed, I’ve already had a great deal of effect in molding public opinion about Holdren’s role in the administration, since the controversy over my essay is practically the only publicity Holdren has gotten.

      

  266. 266Anonymous on Jul 26, 2009 at 5:54 pm:

    I think comment #36 pretty much sums this up.

      

  267. 267Boris on Jul 26, 2009 at 7:50 pm:

    John Holdren, Obama’s Science Czar!! Tell me, do you include “jewish” people in your scheme???

      

  268. 268J.P. Smith on Jul 27, 2009 at 10:55 am:

    fascinating report and responses…is this still open for more comment?

      

  269. 269zombie on Jul 27, 2009 at 11:28 am:

    #268 J.P. Smith

    You just commented! So — of course it’s still open for more comment. Jump right in!

      

  270. 270J. Hartshorn on Jul 27, 2009 at 11:52 am:

    Hello again -

    I would like to apologize for attempting to comment under different names. I was trying to understand why an earlier comment I submitted never appeared, whether because you were censoring my comments in particular, or just because it was too long. So I tried both under different names, and a smaller section of my full response. This was perhaps disingenuous, although since your real name is not attached to this blog, I don’t think I can be criticized too much.

    Of course, you have a right to not post comments, since it’s your blog. It would be helpful to know what you base that decision on, however. I will look to see if you have posted anywhere your criteria for editing responses. Or, you could briefly re-state it in this comment section.

    Looking forward to continuing the discussion,

    J. Hartshorn / California

      

  271. 271zombie on Jul 27, 2009 at 4:09 pm:

    #270 J. Hartshorn

    I don’t censor comments or block comments. However, the WordPress blogging template has a doohickey that “holds for moderation” any comment with two or more links in it, as a way of filtering out spam comments. It’s supposed to send me a notification email whenever a comment enters the “moderation queue,” but the problem is for some reason it usually fails to do so. Hence, I’m not even aware that a comment is awaiting for me to approve it (if it’s a real comment) or reject it (if it’s just spam, which is the case 99% of the time). I’ll go check now and see if a comment is waiting approval. I shouldn’t have to check manually like this, but I cant’ figure out how to make the notification system work properly.

      

  272. 272zombie on Jul 27, 2009 at 4:15 pm:

    Hmmm, no comment is awaiting approval. Not sure what (if anything) happened to your earlier comment, but maybe try reposting it and it will go through this time (provided it doesn’t have three or more links in it — in which case you should break it up into s two smaller comments).

    The only time I delete comments is when someone posts something truly egregious — such as advocating violence — or moby comments when someone purposely says something completely offensive while pretending to be their political opponent (e.g. “Howdy y’all, I’m a bible-toting cowboy and I’ll gonna shoot all them jewish liberals with my shiny big gun!”, etc.).

      

  273. 273Anonymous on Jul 27, 2009 at 8:54 pm:

    NOT!

      

  274. 274RK on Jul 27, 2009 at 9:40 pm:

    I give him the benefit of time passing…… I’m just thinking about how different my ideas are now compared to even 4 years ago, so I can definitely see myself looking back on some of my reports in thirty years and thinking, “I can’t believe I wrote that”….. Therefore, I truly don’t view this as a reason for alarm. Also, I’m okay with our government consisting of people who I don’t agree with because this government is supposed to represent the entire country, and I know for sure every person in this great nation does not share my beliefs… that is something I am thankful for.

      

  275. 275Anonymous on Jul 27, 2009 at 9:54 pm:

  276. 276Anonymous on Jul 28, 2009 at 9:37 am:

    Thank you, thank you for getting this information out and doing what our “mainstream” media refuses to do. Slowly but surely Americans are learning what Barack Hussein Obama is really about and it should scare the hell out of every one of us. We’ve got our own little Hitler running our country…now what?

      

  277. 277Anonymous on Jul 28, 2009 at 10:08 am:

    Thank you for your thoroughness. Seem self-defeating that citizens must wade through such a labyrinth of information to home in on the truth. Things would be better if we had more trust in our leaders.

      

  278. 278Anonymous on Jul 28, 2009 at 7:19 pm:

    This is a funny blog making fun of the Elhrich’s:
    http://parrotpatriot.wordpress.com/2009/07/22/elitism-is-the-bomb/

      

  279. 279Padraig's Ghost on Jul 28, 2009 at 9:24 pm:

    The Far Left Death Cult is now in power and will be putting their imprint on the National Heath Care Act before the Congress Critter’s. The cowards in congress will then rubber stamp the act after some histronics for the masses… Some of these people that are making the dark vision of the godless dystopia a reality are British Historian Lisa Jardine (nee Lisa Anne Bronowski), Princton Professor Peter Singer (a son of Austrian Jews who got out Eurpoe escaped the Holocaust in the 1930′s), 60′s wackos Paul R. and Anne H Ehrlich (Hell even their names make them sound like NAZI’s), PETA founder and four star wacko Ingrid Newkirk, and John Holdren (President Obama’s National Science Advisor and disciple of aforementioned 60′s wackos the Ehrlich’s) to name but a very few . Forced Abortion, Forced Euthanasia (infanticide, parricide???????????), sterilization, etc may well be the wave of dark future. Will they serilize poor people like several Southern States did in up until the 1970′s to poor black people or the Germans did to non-arians? These people are as scary and as evil as the German NAZI’s were. We will also see a sharp increase in funding of Margaret Sanger’s Planned Parenthood. How ironic that the First African American president will increase funding to an organization founded by a human monster like Sanger who called for the serilization and eventual extermination of black people! See the quote below!

    “We should hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with
    social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities. The most
    successful educational approach to the Negro is through a religious appeal.
    We don’t want the word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro
    population, and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if
    it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members.”
    – Margaret Sanger’s December 19, 1939 letter to Dr. Clarence Gamble, 255
    Adams Street, Milton, Massachusetts. Original source: Sophia Smith
    Collection, Smith College, North Hampton, Massachusetts. Also described in
    Linda Gordon’s Woman’s Body, Woman’s Right: A Social History of Birth
    Control in America . New York: Grossman Publishers, 1976.
    http://www.gateway.org/content/pdf/quotes.pdf

    BE AFRAID, VERY AFRAID OF THE ORWELLIAN NIGHTMARISH REALITY OF THE LIBERAL COLLECTIVIST/FABIAN SOCIALISTS COME TO FRUITRITION!!!!!!!!!

    1969: VICTOR CHARLIE IN THE WIRE,
    2009: VICTOR CHARLIE IN THE WHITEHOUSE

      

  280. 280BJ on Jul 30, 2009 at 12:49 am:

    Zombie -

    see if you can source this Holdren quote that is making the rounds across the blogs today…

    ““The fetus, given the opportunity to develop properly before birth, and given the essential early socializing experiences and sufficient nourishing food during the crucial early years after birth, will ultimately develop into a human being,”

    page 235 in chapter 8 of the book, which is titled “Population Limitation.”

    This is setting the groundwork for legalized infanticide.

      

  281. 281zombie on Jul 30, 2009 at 7:57 am:

    #280 BJ

    The quote is real. The name of the book is actually “Human Ecology,” on page 235. I’m going to have a new report up about Holdren next week which discusses many other quotes from that book which are MUCH more egregious — as well as quotes from other books. This story isn’t fading away — it’s just getting started.

      

  282. 282S on Jul 30, 2009 at 6:03 pm:

    Hi, I was just reading that on page 273 of the book he also talks about how newborns develop into humans (as in, they aren’t human as newborns and young babies), with the right socialization and such and if they don’t receive these things they develop into deficient humans. Can you check that out and scan those pages to confirm? Unbelievable, isn’t it!!!

      

  283. 283capitalistpiglet on Jul 30, 2009 at 7:57 pm:

    Zombie, I heard a news item on my local radio today (David Boze Show, Seattle, KTTH) about Holdren, saying he advocated trees being given rights in court. Did you break that story? Is it verified?

      

  284. 284Anonymous on Aug 2, 2009 at 7:10 am:

    BCM said “…What Erlich predicted in that book has come to pass…but only to an extent. The US is at 300 million population now. What’s to stop it from hitting 600 million or even a billion?

    The stark answer is…nothing. I won’t predict the year, but I will predict we’ll get there eventually. It’s inevitable….”

    The population goes up because of IMMIGRATION! Immigrants have large families, 2nd and 3rd generation Americans do not. The actual USA population growth for AMERICAN CITIZENS is about zero, as is that of England and most of Europe. this is why immigrants are brought in from third world countries. Get your facts straight please.

      

  285. 285something to think about on Aug 2, 2009 at 2:43 pm:

    Because of many odd experiences that I have had in the last three years, I no longer laugh at people who are paranoid about things like an “invasion from aliens” or other things. For over 6 years as I gathered more and more evidence of government malfeasance, I could not make sense of some of their actions. I could not understand why they would want to kill off the majority of the population of earth. Doing this would put the “elite” in the crosshairs of their primary money source, the Chinese. For those of you who don’t know, the phrase “guarranteed by the full faith and credit of the USA” actually means guarranteed by the PEOPLE of the USA who will WORK TO PAY OFF THESE DEBTS! If we are all dead, then who will pay off those debts? Even if HIllary Clinton deeded all our property to the Chinese, it is not enough to pay back the trillions that these monsters have run up. If we are all killed, who will pay those debts? There are only a couple of logical conclusions that might be drawn: One, that there won’t be any reason to “fear” the Chinese (i.e. they are dead, they are compliscent or they are afraid of something that our “elite” can use on them. Two, something or someone with even more power than the elite is holding a gun or a promise on them.

    Once you get to the part about somebody or something holding a promise on the elite of this world…you get to the question of WHO THAT FORCE COULD BE…listing the possibilities makes for a short list:

    1. one of them made a breakthrough that permits them to live forever or solves all their problems.
    2. They have somewhere else to go and we aren’t important to that plan…begs the issue of “where,” but I have some answers to that as well.
    3. They really did make a treaty with malevolent aliens in the 40s (through the Germans) or 50s (Eisenhower) and they are not either slaved to that group of aliens (rumored to have mind control devices that can be implanted) or they have been threatened, promised and told to get rid of the rest of us to permit the aliens to take over this planet.

    I am starting to believe that #3 is very possible for many reasons. One, the unexplained JUMP in technology since the 50s where the rate of change was big innovation about every 20 years. The rate now is big innovation about every 2 years and I don’t think that we have gotten that much smarter.

    Two, after carefully reading the stories of abductees like Karla Turner or Tucker and others, I cannot reconcile the issue of a planet about to fall apart and aliens stealing ovum and sperm. If the planet were falling apart, why would the aliens seen by these people be trying to make alien-human crosses? Surely, they know more about the planetary cycles than we do. Three, stories out of India seem to confirm that there were structures on the moon and that we have been lied to about that…Why would our government not tell us about finding structures on the moon? Four, an astronaut that wants us to go to Mars mentioned that there is a monolith on Phobos, one of the smaller planets in our galaxy. This fact has already been confirmed. Five, a man who served in Kennedy’s cabinet as a legal advisor, reported over and over that we already had the ability to go to the moon and Mars and that we had set up colonies there that the Rockefellers were in control of. We the citizens had paid for those colonies but we weren’t going to be permitted to go there without the approval of the “elite” including Rockefeller. Six, many UFO experts with actual experience with aliens and who were beginning to speak out about unethical and illegal agreements between factions in our government and MALEVOLENT ALIENS have ABRUPTLY DIED in the last 20 years. They began to become scarce when videos, pictures and other “proof” of aliens occupying underground facilities in New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California, Texas and other “warm” states began to surface. In particular, those that were going to talk about the epidemic of “missing” children in the USA and every country that we have invaded or signed up for a “free trade” agreement has begun to experience this specific problem. English police have begun to talk about this problem and they note that, despite all the cameras, the children’s kidnappings have never been captured.

    Now, I strongly recommend that everybody get a copy of Pale Horse, Pale Rider by William Cooper (one of the UFOlogists that died, but in a terrible shootout with police–well, they mostly shot him), Karla Tucker’s books on abduction and finally, the surprisingly great coverage of lots of ET-related things by a young man who began reporting on this issue when he was 12 years old. He is much older now, but the clarity of what he has written is amazing. His books are: the Dulce papers, Secrets of the Mojave and the Omega files. His name is: Branton, please buy the books from Amazon or send him a contribution because his work is invaluable.

    One thing that he uncovered, that has been echoed by other contactees, is that there are both good and bad ETs out there. Our government was actually warned, according to everything that I have read, by friendly ETs–NOT TO DEAL WITH THE ETS that currently occupy underground bases around the country. Our government did not listen because of their arrogance and the Shadow Government’s desire to be able to RULE THE EARTH by force.

    If you can’t believe what I am suggesting…ask yourself these questions:

    1. What are all those things up in the sky that no one can explain?
    2. Why has John Leonard Walton (?) been able to photograph huge ships (clearly not satellites) stationed above our equator if such things don’t exist?
    3. Why have some people been able to strip out the jamming from NASA footage and obtain pictures of what look to be streets, dome homes and lakes on the surface of mars? (Not the one that NASA has on their site, but the feeds from the other parts of Mars that we canont see.
    4. WHY IS ABOUT 6 TRILLION DOLLARS GONE MISSING FROM OUR DOD AND OTHER BUDGETS THAT NOBODY CAN FIND? Where did that money go?
    5. What was the CIA and other intelligence groups doing that required them to sell trillions of dollars of drugs for “black projects” that they don’t even list in Congressional reporting? What are they keeping so secret? You know that it can’t possibly be just spying etc., because who would they spy on?

    6. Why hasn’t our government told us the truth about global warming? It is not being caused by “hydrocarbons,” it is being caused by galactic rays that apparently affect the earth in the same way about every 26,000 years. These are the same forces that are weakening our magnetosphere and making the potential for celestial objects crashing into us—seriously high.

    Please read what I have written and read some of the accounts that I recommended. Although I have long believed that we could not be alone in the Universe, I was not a real UFO person before the last 3 years. I did not believe Icke either until I got irrefutable proof or a hell of a good hallucination about 2 years ago. There is something very bizarre going on that would cause our government officials to begin treating us like cattle and as though we aren’t even of the same species…perhaps we aren’t or perhaps they believe that they aren’t…either way, simple greed doesn’t explain their absolute determination to inject everyone with these vaccines and others that will cause infertility and early death. There has to be more than that to this situation. After all, the super wealthy have been at this about 400 years and this is the first time that they have wanted to kill off everybody.

    MK

      

  286. 286something to think about on Aug 2, 2009 at 2:52 pm:

    One other thing that I should mention for those of you who DON”T Make an effort to keep up. BIRTH RATES HAVE DROPPED LIKE A STONE OVER THE LAST 20 YEARS. THE FIGURES OF SIX BILLION PEOPLE ON THE PLANET ARE WRONG. Not only are there fewer than that…you have to actually go to the various countries and check their websites, do not depend on US numbers. In addition to the drop in birth rates world wide to about 2 to 3 children per family…for the first time in history, it seems that more boys are being born than girls. I have noticed this in every country in the world. It is not natural.

    Furthermore, in addition to the odd happenings with population..there are a few facts that are really pertinent…80 percent of the world’s wealth is in the hands of a few thousand people. Those people own multiple houses, uncounted numbers of cars, boats and airplanes/jets etc. The rest of the world owns relatively few cars, boats etc. Many don’t have electricity in their homes. The primary cause of global warming (which is not actually CO2) is supposed to be carbon dioxide and the biggest sources of C02 are: shipping from China, electrical generation (USA) and motor vehicles. Killing off all the poor people in the world will not change the fact that the globe is warming as are Mars, Venus, Pluto, Saturn etc. EITHER THERE ARE PEOPLE ON THOSE PLANETS DRIVING CARS…or the cause for the warming is something else. The Something Else has already been determined by scientists. There are about 3,000 scientists worldwide (and the number is growing) that have stated that C02 is not the cause of global warming—cosmic radiation is the cause.

    MK

      

  287. 287serial birther on Aug 3, 2009 at 7:30 am:

    Gee….all this baby talk has got me thinking about babies….again….I think I go find my husband and work on another one!!!..we are Quiverfull…..

      

  288. 288anonymous on Aug 3, 2009 at 10:01 am:

    it’s embarassing that there are so many imbeciles out there who will believe everything they read on the internet…

      

  289. 289John on Aug 5, 2009 at 4:44 am:

    If people like John Holdren really believed there is an over population problem on the planet that needs to be “fixed”, they would or should be the first in line to make an early, unscheduled exit from the planet earth. What these people really want is the power to determine who will actually live. They want the power to establish the criteria which would determine who has social value. A world populated with a billion John Holdren clones would be perfect in their eyes, but one unwed teenage mother living in poverty, is one to many.

    Now we have a president who wants to establish national healthcare which would in effect give a yet to be created government agency the power John Holdren envisions. When this agency can determine who will receive what care as he has proposed we will all be doomed. His proposed plan would limit care to those who are to old, based on guidelines to be established by this agency. God help us, if we give the government the power Obama desires, to determine if the care people need will be cost effective, or to great a financial drain on the system. George Orwell may have missed his predictions by a few years, but he was on the right track.

      

  290. 290Anonymous on Aug 6, 2009 at 11:13 am:

    Thanks for the research. I believe you. Verify right? I’ll check the book.
    All my other research collaborates this association with obama. RADICAL

      

  291. 291Rhiesa on Aug 6, 2009 at 11:48 pm:

    I honestly don’t see the problem with those examples. The world would be a better place if population controls were put in place, the irresponsible had their children removed and placed in families that could provide and ‘undesirables’, those who undermined the intellectual advancement of the human race, were eliminated.

    Of course, I say this knowing that if such a purge happened I’d be part of the elite that remained. Nevertheless, why shouldn’t the intelligent few be the only ones who can live? Those who have a passion for knowledge and enlightenment, those who are perhaps a higher form of human allowed to live in a world closer to balance.

    It isn’t beneficial to allow the stupid close minded masses to slow humanity. I would say it’s more immoral to allow them to destroy us all than to preemptively remove them from the equation.

      

  292. 292zombie on Aug 7, 2009 at 9:11 am:

    Everyone: please note that there is a new essay about Holdren’s unsavory views now posted at zombietime; check out this latest zomblog entry.

      

  293. 293Wernher on Aug 10, 2009 at 5:16 pm:

    Holdren did NOT RENOUNCE ANYTHING.
    His answer in plain english was: I no longer care about the number of people in the US, because I now hope for a planetary regime in the future which will basically make the US obsolete anyway. The people of the whole world need to adapt to my nightmarish fantasies out of hell.

    On a sidenote: Do you remember “James Bond – Moonraker”?
    The villain there named HUGO DRAX wants to kill off the earths population completely except the chosen few perfect specimen of man which are allowed to live on.
    He even looks quite like Holdren!
    Interesting, not?

      

  294. 294Lupe Weaver on Aug 11, 2009 at 9:44 am:

    I do believe in abortion but, not like this. I believe a woman or young girl that has been raped should not by any means be forced to have a baby. Also, a female that has a mental illness that might torture or kill her baby later should be made to have an abortion. But, to do it just for the hell of it is completely out of the question. This country needs to start fighting back and praying full time until something definite comes out for us. Remember that with God all things are possible. And God is much more stronger and powerful than the devil. So think about this and lets all do something about getting our beloved country back. I am PROUD of being an AMERICAN!

      

  295. 295Earthmum on Aug 11, 2009 at 4:43 pm:

    Fertility reducing chemicals are already in our water supplies, in the form of Fluoridation, supposedly to keep out teeeth in good order, which is an outright lie.
    Fluoride causes underactive thyroid, brittle bones and teeth, fertility problems, and can be a carcinogen.
    It lowers the IQ, and makes people more pliant.

      

  296. 296Earthmum on Aug 11, 2009 at 5:00 pm:

    Having read what ‘something to think about’ wrote, I would add that people need to read Zecharia Sitchin’s books on the translation of the Sumerian tablets, in which he speaks of a planet Numira (or red planet) on an eccentric 3,600 year orbit, which is once again approaching Earth and can be seen in the sky at present.
    It was depicted as the winged planet because of it’s wing like wake, and the Sumerians talk of Annunaki (the old gods) those who came down from the heavens, and the Nefilim mentioned in the Bible.
    It is possible that at the last pass of this planet some aliens were left here, while some left with the planet, and they were purported to come to mine for gold.
    Some ‘Gods’ bred with humans.
    Is it all connected to the date 2012 when the Mayan Calendar ceased?

      

  297. 297Sparks on Aug 11, 2009 at 7:42 pm:

    Please inform John Holdren,to wait a few short years,maybe 3 to 5 yrs.from now! He will not have to incorporate these socialist/marxist ideas–for the Bible says that a third of mankind will be destroyed–that will be approximately 2,000,000,000 people out of the 6,000,000,000 living on earth today–He will get his wish,but not like he thinks–hopefully he will be one of the 2 billion—!!!

    Sparks

      

  298. 298Gary on Aug 11, 2009 at 8:39 pm:

    Looks like Holden will be Obama’s Joseph Goebbels. Which czar gets to be Himmler?

      

  299. 299Jake on Aug 12, 2009 at 12:08 am:

    How long will it be before we are forced to raise our hand and say “Heil, Obama!” and salute “people” like Holden? This all reminds me too much of Germany, late 30′s! The pieces are slowly coming together here and now, as it was then. America is a land that is most likely in permanent decline, and if not, soon will be due to short-sighted (actually quite ignorant) politicians sent to Washington who are so inept they most likely couldn’t earn enough to feed themselves and their families were it not for a government job with overblown benefits.

    They’ve allowed the backbone of our wealth and strength, that of manufacturing, to move permanently overseas. If war ever comes to America, we can’t even make our own gloves! With nearly $800 billion going to bail out banks and insurance companies who hand out money to cronies as if it were penny candy in the form of bonuses for destroying America, the first step of the plan has been put in place – that of creating financial subserviance through massive taxation (soon to come) of the people. We’ve put these kinds of people in charge of the capitalist country that has essentially funded the whole world in one way or another – the country that for 234 years has always represented the world’s greatest hope?

    If they can do all of this (and they already have) without requiring a single vote from a single American, forced abortions, sterilization and determining who should live and die will be quite easy. Most of these politicians have never successfully run ANYTHING in their private lives – yet we are on the verge of allowing them to DICTATE to us the kind and amount of healthcare we are worthy to receive? Unfortunately, they’re going to get what they want – and the American people are going to get screwed. Wake up America!

    Our population has been fooled by a smoothe talker (as Hitler fooled the people of his country), and he has placed around him the most extreme, dictatorial, dangerous minds this country has to offer, just like back then – and there is little time to reverse it. Half of you will agree with me. The other half of you will see it see it – only after it’s too late!

    I suggest America demand a one person – one vote election to determine if the U.S. goes to Universal Health “Care.” I also suggest the same thing to determine political term limits – since special interest money (that is almost never in the interest of the American public) is what ultimately gets them elected and there is no way they will ever vote themselves out of power. After all, it’s mostly these same people who are now going to vote in a new health care system, whether you like it or not. As a physician, I can tell you undoubtedly – you will NOT.

      

  300. 300Anonymous on Aug 12, 2009 at 12:18 pm:

    lol lol a modest proposal lol

      

  301. 301John Grover on Aug 12, 2009 at 3:15 pm:

    Why are we supposed to get all lathered up over Holdren who is no more than a pimple, and never even mention the most powerful and influential eugenicist of all time? Are we that afraid of the person who ran with the Nazis, championed their “noble effort” and founded Planned Parenthood —Margaret Sanger?!
    As usual, the US Press is scratchin’ somethin’ that doesn’t itch….

      

  302. 302Sswens on Aug 13, 2009 at 4:03 am:

    Great piece of work zombie, premier obama and all the other socialist Are flat out Sick. i am sick and tired of there Agenda, this was an eye opener just one more in a long line of them!

      

  303. 303mia on Aug 14, 2009 at 10:16 am:

    we do need less babies.
    force sterilization on men and woman.
    it is already a crime to let poor people have children who will only starve,die of desease,have no clean water….

      

  304. 304Anonymous on Aug 14, 2009 at 11:09 am:

    “79Anonymous on Jul 11, 2009 at 12:23 pm:
    His mother should have aborted him…he is one of the undesireables in my opinion. Is he out of his mind? Abortion is murder, isn’t it, and taking a fetus/infants life without the mother’s concent should be given the same consequence as a rape would. A teen mother or single mother could raise her own child probably better then a stranger could. This guy is out of his freaking mind.”

    I disagree. If abortion is murder and a mother is forced into an abortion, this should be given the same consequence as first degree murder with special circumstances, not rape.

      

  305. 305Shawn on Aug 15, 2009 at 3:18 pm:

    #303 mia wrote…
    “we do need less babies.
    force sterilization on men and woman.
    it is already a crime to let poor people have children who will only starve,die of desease,have no clean water….”

    Good job, now go throw yourself off a bridge along with Holdren. Mia should go since she can’t spell “disease” and capitalize the first letter of every sentence which is an obvious weakness to a master race. As someone who can spell with good grammar, I believe myself to be superior and that it would be way too undesirable if she ever had babies. We just cannot risk having more men or women reproducing with such weaknesses in their communication abilities passing along their defects.

    Who is with me?

    [Sarcasm intended]

      

  306. 306momtomany on Aug 15, 2009 at 8:34 pm:

    I am so disgusted. I cannot even believe someone who would write these things would
    even be considered! I don’t care that it was 30 years ago, the man is wretched, horrible, I am speachless…..

      

  307. 307Padraig's Ghost on Aug 16, 2009 at 11:05 am:

    I posted reponses to on several other sites concerning the President Obama’s staff, Health Care Reform and the Communitarian-Fabian Society connection over the past several days. The comments were in turn were posted for all to see on the internet. I checked back on each of them to see if any other parties commmented on them. My posts are now gone! I am wondering is someone has already initiated a form of censorship on the internet? I fear we may already be living in Orwell’s 1984!

      

  308. 308Deb on Aug 16, 2009 at 4:02 pm:

    I became interested about Holdren after seeing Glen Beck on 8/15/09. I’m a 51 yr old white woman. I do often think about indiscriminate population growth and how it affects our health care system, crime, unemployment, etc. I don’t think mainstream USA considers anything but “the right to life”. It is obvious to ME that “something” has to change. I’m no brainsurgeon….but take a look around. I’m a nurse and have worked with the developmentally disabled, psychiatric and the elderly all in the long term care setting. I am and will always be empathetic to ANY patient entrusted into my care, and care for them exactly as dictated by my profession. I had a child when I was 17, made up my last year of high school and went on to have 3 more children….but NOT until I was able to afford them. I’ve never been on welfare and neither have any of my children. BUT….I see mothers on welfare having children indiscriminately and NOT raising them with optimal quality of life. It seems (from 1st hand observations), that many of these women not only feel entitled to have as many children as they want….but it’s not a problem for them to allow society to pay for their birth, repeated trips to emergency rooms, and their education…..all the while not WORKING.

    Also first hand observations: While working for a private psychiatric facility I was in a position to counsel a mentally ill man who already had 6 kids, about a vasectomy (which public aid in Illinois WILL pay for). He seemed open to the idea until he re-entered the millieu that night and other mentally ill patients talked him out of anyone “messin with his manhood”. My concern was that he was engaging in unprotected sex with a female patient who already had 7 children that her relatives were raising. WHAT MADNESS allows 2 mentally ill patients with 13 children (who they do NOT support) to not only pro-create….but to DEMAND that society pay for their DECISIONS to do so? And lets all think about who’s probably raising these children (& why), and what quality of life they have.

    Working with the developmentally disabled (for 25 years)….I encountered patients with 0-5 IQ’s being hospitalized repeatedly (4-5 times a year), in intensive care units….so they can return to their life of tube feedings, diaper changes, and drooling.(They commonly live into their 50′s and 60′s) I cared for them as if they were my OWN children…..but often wondered HOW society can continue to support such activity on a widespread basis. It was my LIVELIHOOD and I was grateful to be in the position of caring for them. One of my sons, my ex-husband, 2 brothers, and a sister continue to earn their living taking care of the developmentally disabled, and they too, take wonderful care of them. BUT…it’s a STATE facility….and society is footing the bill.

    I currently know first hand of a woman on disability, in her 50′s, (diabetic), who concurrently has psychiatric issues as well. She has recently driving with a revoked license and borrowed her sons car only to roll over on a gravel road and require extracation from the vehicle. She was treated and released at the hospital only to return the next day requiring surgery on her arm. Her simply disgusting boyfriend is encouraging her to sue the hospital for not recognizing the injury the first day!

    My father had a sub arachnoid hemorrhage at age 80. Neurosurgeons were able to save him. He is currently doing quite well but in a nursing home at tax payers expense as he had no long term care insurance and no assets. This was 3 and a half years ago. The initial 6 months of surgery, intensive care, rehab, and long term care totalled over 1/2 MILLION dollars. This all paid for by medicare and his blue cross blue shield supplemental. He did NOT have a living will. I love my father and he lives at the facility where I now work. He does have quality of life but can not walk independently nor will he ever live independently. He spends every minute I’m not WITH him….missing me. Not what I want for MYSELF at that age….but it is what it is. What would be the result if I went door to door to see who is WILLING to contribute to paying for his room and board and medical care, and forcing society to pay for his and MILLINOS of other elederly who are in his exact position? I currently observe the elderly in their last 6 months to last year of life being hospitalized in intensive care units repeateldy to save LIFE at ALL COSTS. I also observe great humane relief of suffering offered by Hospice for the elderly. I would HOPE that that is the extent of what Obama’s end of life counseling is about. I intend to have a living will in place that would prevent me from being put in my father’s positon.

    What perplexes me MOST….is that in this supposed GOD worshiping society…..that LIFE to most means only LIFE as we see it. Religious and spiritual people in this country….need to start REALIZING that LIFE goes on after whatever existence we have HERE. If people REALLY believed that…..maybe they wouldn’t CLING SO TIGHTLY to the END….at ALL COSTS.

    My 2 cents. No solutions (that are acceptable to mainstream)…..would like to see some REAL alternative suggestions rather than hysteria that Obama is going to promote “death panels”. I did NOT vote for Obama….but I do appreciate that he is acknowledging the OBVIOUS problem that we can NOT continue to support those that do not contribute to society (or even TRY)….at the level that it occurs now….nor the compounded levels we are reaching. These are incidents isolated to MY OBSERVATION…..how many MORE are occurring simultaneously is astounding.

    Do the math.

      

  309. 309SteadyJohn on Aug 17, 2009 at 7:23 am:

    For some odd reason Cliff Kincaid at AIM has to quibble with Zombie about the Holdren revelations.
    http://is.gd/2lekw

    Kincaid writes today:

    “Does Obama’s science adviser advocate compulsory abortions and putting chemicals into the water supply to sexually sterilize human beings? Some well-known conservative bloggers and columnists have repeated this information, based on revelations on a website strangely called Zombietime. But an analysis by Accuracy in Media has determined that some of the most sensational charges against Dr. John P. Holdren fall short of the mark….What Is Zombietime?

    The website Zombietime attracted attention by seeking to prove the most sensational charges against Holdren with actual excerpts from the book that are reproduced for everyone to see. Its headline screamed, “John Holdren, Obama’s Science Czar, says: Forced abortions and mass sterilization needed to save the planet.” The subheadline was, “Book he authored in 1977 advocates for extreme totalitarian measures to control the population.” The author of the piece about Holdren is anonymous and there seems to be no way to contact or even know the identity of the person or persons behind the website.”

      

  310. 310Cat on Aug 17, 2009 at 3:19 pm:

    It seems to me that Zombie hasn’t read much scholarly material and doesn’t understand that Dr. Holren was making hypothesis about very real problems. The man was doing his job as a scholar, he was hypothetizing ways to help, he was not dictating policy. If you don’t think overpopulation is a problem, try visiting India, China, many countries in Africa. Have you ever been anywhere where you experienced starvation up close and personal? I’m not saying that a government should dictate all birth policy, but neither was Dr. Holdren. Maybe Zombie should calm down and re-read a bit. Zombie seems a bit over the top paranoid. Chill dud.

      

  311. 311Jakob Frankenstein on Aug 17, 2009 at 5:37 pm:

    But Cat, is the problem really that there are too many people, or too much poverty? Isn’t it clear that developed countries will naturally reduce their rate of, um, replenishment, as their wealth increases and they urbanize?

    Instead of examining how to give people more access to better quality of life they are blaming what are in effect the “end users” for not designing better lifestyles. I find that mean-spirited, misanthropic, and selfish. What was it Maurice Strong, that great humanitarian, said about free or cheap energy? Something like it would be disastrous to allow it to get in the hands of the average bloke.

      

  312. 312Mary Watkins on Aug 20, 2009 at 12:26 pm:

    tHANKS ZOMBIETIME for telling it like it is . I think the more i read about Holdrens idea to control the overpopulation of people and creat the perfect smartest race, he should start with the sterialization of the far left democrats. That would be perfect place to start and end with such an idiotic idea!!!!!! Leave it to our great leader to surround himself with such talented people that are so moral and on the up and up!!!!!!!!!!!! Keep up the good work and keep exposing these frauds, THanks!!!!!!!!

      

  313. 313Anonymous on Aug 20, 2009 at 6:42 pm:

    People are so stupid. Does anyone really think American society is going to change dramatically because of one person being in a particular seat of power? George W. was in the most powerful chair in the world, and even he couldn’t bring the country to ruin (he tried real hard though, huh?)

    There is only one rule that is consistant throughout our world, and it has existed since before civilization.

    The intelligent, motivated person prospers while the ignorant, lazy person fails.

    If you want to be successful, and define life on your own terms, then learn what is necessary to do so, and then DO IT! It doesn’t matter what country you are in, what the economy is like, who your leader(s) are, what your upbringing was like. If you want something badly enough, you’ll find away, and if not you’ll find an excuse, and it doesn’t make one shred of difference whether the Democrats or Republicans are in the White House. You want to know what single thing people are best at…

    complaining.

      

  314. 314Anonymous on Aug 21, 2009 at 12:29 pm:

    hmm… and George Bush used to do coke….

      

  315. 315Anonymous on Aug 21, 2009 at 1:49 pm:

    fricking conservative whack jobs- you all need to stop listening to those moron conservative commentators (e.g Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, etc), who with their 3rd grade education, pass off this crap as truth.

    get a life- learn to read- think critically.

      

  316. 316David M Doan on Aug 22, 2009 at 6:48 pm:

    Bah humbug—these two authors should stop drinking the kool-aid they discovered in the 60′s at Woodstock. It was never meant to control the population, except by the word of God. We don’t need to have these idiots to try to control the population. May they burn in HELL for what they are proposing !!!

      

  317. 317roger on Aug 25, 2009 at 1:19 am:

    JUST PLAIN “EVIL”!!!

      

  318. 318Mike M on Aug 25, 2009 at 5:30 am:

    Wake up you IDIOT ‘liberals’! YOU now find yourselves squarely in the camp that advocates the very atrocities that you regularly accuse so-called ‘extreme right wing zealots’. Take OFF the rose colored glasses and LOOK at what Holdren really is – an exterminator. They are at the pinacle of elitism believing that THEY are somehow especically ~qualified~ to decide life and death for every person on the planet. For example, real ‘Liberals’ ~used to~ decry ‘big brother’ and would simply be apoplectic at the very notion of ANY president advocating a health plan that FORCES YOU to hand over YOUR private medical records to a federal agency – WHAT HAPPENED TO THOSE LIBERALS? Real ‘Liberals’ used to complain about the ‘imperialistic’ mistreatment of all the poor people in the third world and here YOU are backing unproven nonsense about ‘global warming’ that was DESIGNED FROM THE START to reduce the population of the third world via starvation and limit them from using their own resources. Yes, and you used to be SOOO angry at corporate FAT CATS like those in big Pharma and their cozy relationship with ‘republicans’ .. HA! Look in the mirror libs – the rat you put in the WH is making deals with them and all you can throw back are ad hominems? You’ve been hijacked and you don’t even seem to know it! Your ‘liberal’ spirit is now GONE forever and you finally drank the koolaid..

      

  319. 319Mike M on Aug 25, 2009 at 5:35 am:

    #313 said: “Does anyone really think American society is going to change dramatically because of one person being in a particular seat of power?”

    Back in the early 1930′s probably few Germans thought that their society would change dramatically because of one person in power….

      

  320. 320allrsn on Aug 25, 2009 at 9:09 am:

    Some people enjoy killing as many as they can anyway that they can. Think mass murder to the extreme.

      

  321. 321Mdubb on Aug 26, 2009 at 5:55 am:

    “Compulsory control of family size is an unpalatable idea, but the alternatives may be much more horrifying. As those alternatives become clearer to an increasing number of people in the 1980s, they may begin demanding such control. A far better choice, in our view, is to expand the use of milder methods of influencing family size preferences ….If effective action is taken promptly against population growth, perhaps the need for the more extreme involuntary or repressive measures can be averted in most countries. ..”

    “It is often argued that the right to have children is so personal that the government should not regulate it. In an ideal society, no doubt the state should leave family size and composition solely to the desires of the parents. In today’s world, however, the number of children in a family is a matter of profound public concern. The law regulates other highly personal matters. For example, no one may lawfully have more than one spouse at a time.”

      

  322. 322Manus on Aug 28, 2009 at 5:15 pm:

    Enough said. It”s obvious the population needs to arm itself against the elected government, the FDA, the FBI, and the police, the national guard and the army and whoever else is in the Government employ. So Annie and Manny get your gun and plenty of amunition to go with it.

      

  323. 323Manus on Aug 28, 2009 at 5:47 pm:

    I went through WW2 as a child and suffered all the deprivations due to those bastards that run the world . My dad warned as many people as he could about what was happening in Gemany . Hardly any one wanted to know. People seem not to have changed much , still they are avoiding the obvious, hoping that it will go away. Well , it’s not going to ,the longer each one of us stalls the harder it will be to turn back the clock.
    Believe me, if you agree with Eugenics it won’t be the Elite that volunteres to exit this mortal toil, it will be you and I and our children that are required to self destruct.They are pretty well doing it right now with nutricide, Codex, medical drugs, GMFood, vaccinations, and many other ways of contaminating our food and our environment so to encourage sterility and sub fertility and Iatrogenesis
    My father before the German invasion , build us a shelter , God bless him and advised neighbours to do the same, but none of them cared less. When the bombs did start falling, guess who rushed into our shelter first before we could even get in.
    After the war , dad took ud all 9 of us to New Zealand to get away from the relentless war mongering and the petty control freeks that call the shots. Things are still reasonably peacefull here in New Zealand , but the world is very small now and I fear that Globalisation is not too far off, inwhich case none of us are safe anymore. So gird yourself against what is to come, it won’t be pretty.
    It will make the holocaust lok like childs play.

      

  324. 324Manus on Aug 28, 2009 at 10:32 pm:

    I don’t want to hog things today, but I am on a roll… there is just so much to be concerned about and it scares the shit out of everyone.
    Over population is just an excuse for the billionaires and the elite to dispose of us. They think that if they keep up the propaganda we’ll all start to believe in overpopulation
    The world has never been so well off despite those greedy devils that run the UN and their cohorts. It’s never enough for them. Not only do they not want to share what they’ve managed to rob from people, they also want to claim the little that everyone else owns as well. They don’t want to pay us for it… they want it for nothing!… and what better way than to kill us all off and take it!
    There has always been sufficient resources because everything is recyclable, including ourselves. This idea of Malthus 150 years ago that there wouldn’t be standing room has been proved to be entirely false. Some of the most populace nations are the wealthiest and some of the most sparsely populated ones are indeed the poorest and whose fault is that??
    Just take a look at those greedy bankers, government officials, the CEO’s that give themselves hefty bonuses and suck the life blood out of the 3rd World. They deliberately cause banks to go bust so that the tax payer has to bail them out…. enabling them to play the same trick over and over again on those unfortunates who haven’t the means to defend or sustain themselves.
    All those officials that run the various charities and the various branches of the UN, those so-called ‘bleeding hearts’ shedding crocodile tears while quietly robbing people blind.
    No, overpopulation be damned!! That’s hardly the problem! Our immediate problem is how to get rid of those who have been plotting to get rid of us ever since WW 2. Most high ranking Nazis such as Fritz ter Meer, were virtually let off the hook and they continued to plot with the UN and all those secret societies such as the Bilderberg Group, the Bohemian Brotherhood and the Club of Rome and others.
    Secret societies never divulge their member’s names …they include many of the Royal Families as well as the most powerful in the Corporate world.These people are mostly Eugenics freeks and depopulation fanatics whose main aim in life is to be the devil and the devil’s advocate all wrapped up into one very nasty package. When you see them on TV, just think to yourselves…. you bunch of criminals! You should be dragged before the Court at the Hague, but then, who knows, those judges can’t be trusted either!
    I have this dilemma. Is it better to keep quiet and leave people to be mauled by the lions… or do I warn them about the pride ready to devour them and their loved ones?
    Best of luck and kind regards.,
    Emanuel.

      

  325. 325Anonymous on Aug 29, 2009 at 5:45 am:

    Let’s remember, in 1934 if you had told a typical German what his government would do over the next ten years he would have looked at you as a madman. Wake up, do you hear it ? Those concerned with individual rights and freedoms being called anti-American, hate mongers, and worse. We are being vilified. Does that sound familiar? Isn’ that what Hitler did to the Jews? Will they be getting the ovens ready for us? OH, I’m probably just a madman !

      

  326. 326Anonymous on Aug 29, 2009 at 12:35 pm:

    I invite you to view my video, The Common Law:

    http://www.youtube.com/CafePeyote#play/all/uploads-all/0/KWWoLcx-U3M

    Let me know if it explains is properly, in the context of our present day situation.

    Best wishes,

    Ricardo Beas
    http://www.cafepeyote.com

      

  327. 327Anonymous on Aug 29, 2009 at 12:38 pm:

    I just want to thank you for making these horrific facts as plain as the nose on my face. I don’t put it in “quotes” in, because it would diminish the seriousness of the situation. B.O.’s zeal to put babies that had survived abortions to death was well known in Chicago and baby saving legislation couldn’t be put forth until he was gone.
    Please do me the favor of noting in particular the EYES of Obama, when viewing pictures or video. If the eyes are the window of the soul, these eyes do give information. The expressions, in particular of arrogance, anger or sternness, is not the only thing I have in mind. His eyes seem to absorb light; rarely is there “reflected light” in the eye color; It is not as obvious in portraits done in a “sitting” with professional lighting.Why no “sparkle” in the eyes ..or a glimmer…the light in the room or the flash? Just FLAT, like his tone and manner and statements. And he never really LOOKS at the “audience”, it’s always under hooded eyes. The former prime Minister of Canada, Pierre Elliot Trudeau sometimes had “hidden” eyes too. Drudge had photographic samples heading his website about a month ago. Very eerie. So check it out. what is he hiding?

      

  328. 328lincoln on Aug 29, 2009 at 1:01 pm:

    I just want to thank you for making these horrific facts as plain as the nose on my face. I don’t put it in “quotes” in, because it would diminish the seriousness of the situation. B.O.’s zeal to put babies that had survived abortions to death was well known in Chicago and baby saving legislation couldn’t be put forth until he was gone.
    This next point is not as nutty as you may think! Please do me the favor of noting in particular the EYES of Obama, when viewing pictures or video. “If the eyes are the window of the soul” these eyes do give information. The expressions, in particular of arrogance, anger or sternness, is not the only thing I have in mind. His eyes seem to absorb light; rarely is there “reflected light” within the eye color; It is not as obvious in portraits done in a “sitting” with professional lighting.Why no “sparkle” in the eyes ..or a glimmer…the light in the room or the flash? Just FLAT, like his tone and manner and statements. And he never really LOOKS at the “audience”, it’s always under hooded eyes. The former prime Minister of Canada, Pierre Elliot Trudeau sometimes had “hooded” eyes too. He was an “intellectual, a prof and a communist. Drudge had photographic samples heading his website about a month ago, with Angelica Merkel and other heads of state. Very eerie. I’ve been observing this since before the election and it really perplexes me.

      

  329. 329S.C.C. / LIBERTY GUARD on Aug 29, 2009 at 5:33 pm:

    Look What It Is All Coming To, And What Measures Are NOW BEING TAKEN ON BOTH SIDES Of The LIBERTY/Global Enslavement/New World Order issue. How much time is left? Not Much…. Help your fellow citizens to TURN the ranks of our Armed Services towards the DEFENSE of The United States domestically from the enemies-of-Liberty and Humanity that have seized the reigns of power here. OR,… let’s call upon the TRUE PATRIOTS THAT ARE ACTIVE WITHIN SUCH RANKS; TO STAND WITH US and prepare to fight for your personal and national survival. IF America falls, the entire world shall be forever enslaved. It will begin just as soon as the contrived genocides have stopped, and the world-population is down by about 6 BILLION less people to control. It’s all just a “thinning of the global slave-herd” for the unelected, Globalist-Pirates.

    EMERGENCY REQUEST FOR MILITARY ASSISTANCE AND INTERVENTION

    OPERATION : “RAGING EAGLE” is a continuing effort of transmitting and reaching REAL PATRIOTS with many formal requests for U.S. Military Intervention and Rescue of the American People, by the American people, and for the American People at large and for the PROMPT REMOVAL of ALL CURRENTLY EFFECTIVE ENEMIES of the United States of America from off of our collective soil and to RESTORE AND RETURN our nation back to it’s balance of U.S. CONSTITUTIONAL- CORRECTNESS (instead of communist-backed “politcal-correctness”) and SAVE AMERICAN CITIZENRY LIVES AND PROPERTIES from the present rogue government that has self-installed throughout the United States of America. IMMEDIATE ACTIONS REQUIRED.

    NOTE TO OTHER AMERICAN-CITIZEN READERS: PLEASE FEEL “FREE” TO MAKE UP YOUR OWN “EMERGENCY REQUEST FOR MILITARY ASSISTANCE AND INTERVENTION” OR JUST COPY AND PASTE my latest version to ALL military websites, recruiter sites, military forums, veterans forums, state government forums and legislatures, and most importantly to ALL ACTIVE MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA A.S.A.P.!

    ALSO; Please report this to ALL pro-Liberty and alternative News Sites and Forums at ONCE!
    ———— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——-

    Last Call For The “HOPE-OF-LIBERTY” : PLEASE FORWARD ASAP – TO ALL Active and Retired Armed Services Members of The United States of America and ALL Concerned Citizens.

    ———— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——-
    TO ALL HONORABLE U.S. ARMED SERVICES PERSONNEL:

    AS Americans yourselves, there are a couple things you should realize:
    One, IF THIS REQUEST IS IGNORED ALL of the braid, the Glory, and The Honor of your Esteemed Service and Profession unto your country will mean NOTHING. IF the military refuses to respond properly; ALL branches of the military WILL BE USED, DISPOSED OF, and ABSORBED and ALL of our proud U.S. Military Heritages and Histories WILL BE ERRATICATED and ERASED. OUR MILITARY SERVICES will have been lowered to the status of “guard dogs” equal to any third-world military on the global-plantation of Globalist-Pirates now threatening and about to openly CONQUER The United States of America.

    IF you are used against American Citizens YOU HAVE FAILED YOUR PRIMARY OBJECTIVES: TO DEFEND THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION and TO DEFEND AMERICANS FROM ALL ENEMIES BOTH FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC.

    TO BE ORDERED TO DO OTHERWISE IS AN ACT OF TREASON AND MAKES OUR MILITARY ENEMIES OF THE AMERICAN CITIZENRY AND IS TREASONOUS TO OBEY. THERE IS NO BETTER DEFINITION FOR “TREASON” THAN THIS DISASTEROUS SCENARIO.
    Whatever Officer that would order ANY PART OF OUR MILITARY to do such things IS A TRAITOR and an enemy of BOTH Liberty and Humanity.

    WITHOUT OUR CONSTITUTION WE ARE NOTHING. WITH OUR CONSTITUTION WE ARE ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS, THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE WORLD’S GREATEST AND HISTORIC NATIONAL EFFORT FOR “TRUE LIBERTY” IN ACTUALITY AND PRACTICE EVER ATTEMPTED ( with OUR GOD-Given and or NATURAL RIGHTS) and YET STILL ABLE TO maintain a large degree of “Freedom” (which is ALLOWED) along the way.

    AS OUR DEFENDERS, it must be obvious to you that outside of the U.S. Constitution and it’s Bill-of-Rights in-place and functioning properly, AND the American People proclaiming it to be THE LAW OF THIS LAND, that there is no other as HONORABLE, nor more NOBLE purpose for our Military’s existence than to be able to adequately defend The UNITED STATES of America and ALL AMERICAN CITIZENS from Overt and Covert Foreign Invaders and other enemies from afar. TO BE ABLE TO KEEP THE TORCH, THE HOPE, THE IDEALS and VIRTUES of LIBERTY alive, and to be the very example for the world to strive towards; IS THE HONOR OF THE AMERICAN ARMED SERVICES, AND NO OTHER FIGHTING FORCES ON EARTH.

    HOWEVER, YOU HAVE NO COUNTRY NOW. The reason YOU/WE HAVE NO COUNTRY is because your/our government (on all levels) has been replaced by CRIMINALS AND TRAITORS (i.e. “Globalist-Pirates” ) now combining efforts with each other and evolving into our present rogue government.

    ALL LEVELS of government in the United States of America have went rogue and NOW IGNORE the very CHAINS-OF-RESTRAINT laid upon government through the instrument of The United States Constitution (U.S.C.).
    THE U.S.C. AND U.S. MILITARY-CAPABILITIES ARE WHAT NOW STANDS BETWEEN THE AMERICAN CITIZEN AND THE COMPLETE DESTRUCTION OF OUR NATION AND ETERNAL TYRANNY ON A GLOBAL-SCALE.

    The United States of America IS DEAD in functionality. It has morphed (by design and implementations of Treason and Subversion) into the incorporated “USA” and soon to be “deceased USA” and then to be mutated into the new slave-state of the North American Union (N.A.U.) as a part of the new global slave-state.
    *ALL OF THIS; without ANY discussion or input from our alleged REPRESENTATIVES in CONgress and without ANY citizenry input into even the topic of the destruction of OUR NATION.

    The results will be the demise of The United States of America, the dissolution of OUR CONSTITUTION (and ALL RIGHTS), the ENSLAVEMENT of ALL PEOPLES ON EARTH (once “amerikans” are disarmed), and TEN’S-OF-MILLIONS of Americans WILL BE EXECUTED. The rest will be enslaved FOREVER.

    *This nation WILL LIKELY NEVER RISE AGAIN IF YOU DO NOT HEED THIS “Last Call For The “HOPE-OF-LIBERTY” IMMEDIATELY.

    The Globalist-Pirates have just finished practicing US-Domestic, nation-wide, “LIVE EXERCISES” with various troops at their disposal here (like on 9/11 and the London Underground bombings etc.,.) it seems to be their “M.O.” (“Modus Operandi”-staging “exercises” EXACTLY like the “LIVE EVENTS” that then unfold or unfold later). THIS PARTICULAR “live-exercise” was based on “preventive terrorism” (i.e. “rogue-government Arrests and Executions of your fellow American Patriots” at some point in the near future).
    ———— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ———

    Please forward to all fellow Armed Services Personnel and to your Commanders THIS REQUEST FOR FORMAL INTERVENTION and it’s suggestions at once. Thank you.
    ———— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ———

    AMERICAN-CITIZENRY GENERAL RECOMMENDATIONS:

    * IMMEDIATELY ISSUE A CLEAR AND PRECISE DEFINITION OF “RIGHTFUL AND WRONGFUL”- ORDERS FAR AND WIDE AMONG ALL ACTIVE PERSONNEL:

    RIGHTFUL AND WRONGFUL ORDERS:

    A “RIGHTFUL ORDER” IS A Constitutional / Bill-of-RIGHTS upholding ORDER,..

    A “WRONGFUL ORDER” IS ANYTHING that subverts, curtails or tries to void RIGHTFUL orders, The U.S.C., and / or The BILL-of-RIGHTS.

    * IMMEDIATE ARRESTS SHOULD BE DONE UNDER A DECLARED LIMITED MARTIAL LAW TO BE DECLARED FOR THE DEFENSE OF AMERICAN CITIZENS WHOM YOU SERVE IN DEFENSE OF OUR NATION ACCORDING TO THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION (of which you have sworn oath to defend) and the 9 to 0 Supreme Court decision of MARBURY vs. MADISON (made within 20 years of becoming a nation)- WHICH DECLARED (paraphrasing) : ALL UN-Constitutional edicts, decrees, colour-of-law statutes, codes, etc .,.and ANYTHING that is counter to The U.S.C. and The Bill-of-Rights IS VOID. THIS WAS DETERMINED AND NEVER OVER TURNED.

    ALL CHARGES of those arrested should be merited as to all obvious and recorded violations of the United States Constitution, The Bill-of-Rights, Military Protocols- dealing with spies, Violations of The People’s Trust of Integrity in Public Service (in ALL respective governmental offices), and in the FULL INTERESTS of JUSTICE and LIBERTY’s further progression and preservation.

    * IMMEDIATE RECALL OF ALL DEPLOYED ARMED SERVICE FORCES AND ASSETS WORLD-WIDE and DEFCON-2 PROTOCOLS INITIATED. Public global announcements should begin immediately too; explaining these necessary precautions for Defense purposes ONLY. Re-Deployment of U.S. Troops should be along ALL U.S. mainland borders and nation-wide for use in all necessary Restoration and Liberty Operations.

    ALL OF THESE DRASTIC PRECAUTIONARY MEASURES being deemed necessary during these restoration operations and transitions back to a return of The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA to it’s constitutional resolve and functioning properly towards a “more perfect union” by the proper restraints on government. All the while leading the world in the very examples of Liberty as it seeks TRUE LIBERTY for all of its legitimate citizenry. In conjunction with these; announcements should be made declaring “an End to U.S. Imperialism”.

    * IMMEDIATE ARRESTS continued: of the non-citizen Barry Soetoro (aka imposter-”President Obama”) and his ENTIRE rogue administration, of ALL lawyers and Law Firm Owners/Partnerships that have concealed this fact from public scrutiny, of ALL active and retired members of CONgress who have records of introducing UN-Constitutional legislation and / or voting for such legislation going back to the day President John Fitzgerald Kennedy was shot. The immediate arrests of ALL Presidential administrations and staff of subversive and/or treasonous members since. ALSO; ALL records of J.F.K.’s circumstances surrounding his death UNSEALED AT ONCE ( some are sealed until 2029 and at Presidential discretion for release at that time) and made available for public scrutiny IMMEDIATELY.

    NOTE: IMMEDIATE ARRESTS OF ALL ACTIVE OR RETIRED: COUNCIL OF FOREIGN RELATION MEMBERS (including ALL members that are of The Vice and Joint Chiefs-of-Staff etc.), BOHEMIAN CLUB MEMBERS (“Bohemian Grove, California”) , CLUB-OF-ROME MEMBERS, TRI-LATERAL COMMISSION MEMBERS, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBERS, FEDERAL RESERVE MEMBERS, ALL DUAL CITIZENSHIP CURRENT HOLDERS, FEDERAL DRUG ADMINISTRATION members taking profits to approve drugs, and the immediate arrests of ALL Federal Reserve Chairmen and the present Secretary of The Treasury for his complicity in the current Banking Crisis that was fomented to create a World Banking Order. ALSO;
    THE IMMEDIATE ARRESTS OF ALL MEMBERS, TRAINEES, FORMER TRAINEES, AND PROPERTY OWNERS AND / OR INVESTORS OF THE KNOWN 35+ JIHADS-ISTS CAMPS/TRAINING FACILITIES etc, SITUATED ON ALL U.S. SOIL.

    * The seizure of ALL (of those arrested and charged) assets for the U.S. Treasury to resale at auction to the public OF THESE SAME CONFISCATED PROPERTIES and ALL other legal assets involved after Liberty Operations have ended. These same individuals if found guilty of charges of SUBVERSION, TREASON, or Enemy Combatant/Invader status shall suffer Just Penalties and should suffer the immediate deportation of ALL of their immediate family members for future security purposes along with THEIR assets being seized if proven to have gained them or gaining them presently through unscrupulous violations of Law, of SUBVERSION, Acts of TREASON, of being DEPLOYED and INVADING ENEMY COMBATANTS, or ANY gain of family or self through self-enriching terms of office(s) of the offenders/traitors.

    NOTE: ALL ARRESTED SHOULD IMMEDIATELY STAND AS CHARGED BEFORE MILITARY EMERGENCY COURTS for charges of TREASON, SUBVERSION, SPYING or Violations of The Public Trust, and or Violations of Oaths of Office etc.,. ALL THAT ARE FOUND GUILTY OF TREASON, SUBVERSION or SPYING SHOULD BE EXECUTED AT ONCE. The rest should face natural LIFE-IMPRISONMENT or be PERMANENTLY EXILED and DEPORTED IMMEDIATELY.
    {ALL multiply-charged (repeat offenders) and sentenced PEDOPHILES in ANY Prison or Correctional Facility should be summarily EXECUTED to rid society of these types of Human-Predators, strongly encourage self-corrected-behavior through self-rehabilitation , and free up taxpayers burdens for their detention and or incarceration.}

    ALSO; ALL Public Servants that have Openly, Covertly, or just Followed-Orders to help accomplish the FORCED DIRECTIONAL PUBLIC-POLICY CHANGES BY USAGE OF STAGED EVENTS, FORCED PUBLIC INDOCTRINATIONS INSTEAD OF “TRUTH SEEKING” AND REPORTING THROUGH THE MEANS OF MASS-MEDIA AND OTHER OPERATIONS, CREATED A TRAUMA-BASED PUBLIC PERSPECTIVE RESULTING IN MUCH UN-NECESSARY FEAR AND ANXIETY, (and CAUSING MANY INJURIES, DEATHS, DISABILITIES and MUCH SUFFERING of MANY Fellow American Citizens, while other criminals, traitors, and other enemies of the United States of America furthered this cause and worked diligently to create a “USA”into the “NAU” and into a mutated and estranged version of itself in the format of “A NEW AMERICAN CENTURY” should be arrested at once for endangering the Public Safety, SEDITION, VIOLATIONS of PUBLIC TRUST and OATH OF OFFICE as well as the possibilities of the Higher Crimes of SUBVERSION and TREASON. OF course the U.S. Treasury takes it ALL again in this situation.

    * IMMEDIATE DEPORTATIONS: of ALL Foreign National Troops on U.S. soil with IMMEDIATE SEIZURES of ALL of their weapons, vehicles and logistical equipment (with exceptions of RUSSIAN TROOPS who should be allowed to return home WITH their weapons and equipment as a token gesture of American Goodwill and for the further encouragements and explorations into Liberty by their nation), of ALL Dual-Citizens, of ALL illegal aliens giving them 2 weeks to return to their nations of origin/other OR FACE IMMEDIATE ARRESTS/CONFRONTED AS INVADERS, SPIES and/or ENEMY COMBATANTS, of ALL COMMUNIST organizations or their FRONT organizations such as A.C.O.R.N. as well as the C.P.U.S.A., A.C.L.U., and the A.D.L. and their members.

    * IMMEDIATE SUSPENSIONS: of ALL FOREIGN-AID MONIES, of ALL OFFICIAL ALLY-SHIP TREATIES including N.A.T.O. (while encouraging our former democratic allies to band together for their own mutual protections) , of G.A.T.T., of N.A.F.T.A., of C.A.F.T.A., of S.P.P. operations, of ALL CHINESE and other COMMUNIST IMPORTS and EXPORTS, of ALL PAYMENTS of ALL U.S. DEBTS (until determined legitimate and NOT profits from subversions or Acts of TREASON), of ALL multi-national Corporations OPERATIONS who use foreign labor instead of strictly using the American workforce (along with seizures of ALL OF THEIR U.S. corporate assets for the U.S. Treasury to resale to the American Citizenry at auction at a later date with proceeds to be kept in the U.S. Treasury), of ALL FEDERAL RESERVE NOTES (and replace them with U.S. TREASURY BILLS with monies going directly into the U.S. Treasury like Pres. JFK tried to do just before his public “execution”) , of ALL FEDERAL INCOME TAXES (FISA), of the ISSUANCE of United Nations SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS, of ALL FEDERAL DRUG LAWS, of ALL NEW PRESCRIPTION DRUGS ISSUANCE’S AND VACCINATION MANDATES, of ALL genetically modified crops, patent claims and ANY such research (primarily from the Nazi founded company “MONSANTO”), of ALL FEDERAL Elections with REPLACEMENT ELECTIONS TO BE DONE WITHIN ONE YEAR while explaining to the public that since the “FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT” precedent had already been accepted in the public mindsets; that ONLY well-known Blacks should be encouraged to run for the Office of the Presidency to further heal our nation (People well liked by all races like the Actors Morgan Freeman, Wesley Snipes, Bill Cosby, or Retired NFL Coach Dungy, or Actor Denzel Washington, Basketball STAR and Actor Michael Jordan, Political Hopeful Alan Keyes, and OTHERS that are well-known Blacks of notable character and appeal across important cultural lines from other public exposures to the public etc etc.,.”PRESIDENT FREEMAN”, “PRESIDENT KEYES”, “PRESIDENT WASHINGTON” ALL sound pretty good to us…), of BOTH Republican and Democrat political parties and their operations, of ALL Bank Foreclosures to give time to investigate charges of FRAUD etc.,., that may also lead to charges of SUBVERSION and or TREASON AND THE SUBSEQUENT ARRESTS AND SEIZURES OF ALL OF THEIR BANKING ASSETS AS WELL AS CHARGES BROUGHT FORTH UNTO CERTAIN BANKING OFFICIALS AND THEIR PERSONAL/FAMILY ASSET SEIZURES AS WELL, of ALL Small Business FEDERAL REGULATIONS, of ALL FEDERAL Environmental Regulations RELATED TO GLOBAL WARMING (while explaining to the public that Global Warming is occurring throughout our entire Solar System and IS NOT DUE TO HUMAN contributions) , of ALL FEDERAL UN-FUNDED MANDATES UPON State or Local governments and agencies, of ALL FEDERAL SOCIAL SECURITY and WELFARE PAYMENTS for ANY and / or ALL ILLEGAL ALIENS AND RESERVE THESE FOR Legal-CITIZEN recipients only, of ALL Drug Enforcement Agency operations and further suspensions of ALL FEDERAL DRUG LAWS/statutes etc.,while explaining that this is a States Rights issue and should be met with the legalization, taxation and regulatory control of Marijuana (MUCH LIKE ALCOHOL) and to offer FREE LEGAL hard narcotics to addicts with a STATE ISSUED ADDICT CARD that could be used in re-habs funded by Marijuana sales and after liability waivers are signed by addicts to get their drugs and use them FREE-OF-CHARGE (either AT HOME or AT THE RE-HAB-issuing addicts ammounts of Cocaine and Synthetic Heroin) while making it a MANDATORY NATURAL-LIFE IMPRISONMENT SENTENCE TO BUY OR SELL ILLEGAL DRUGS (this will end all drug related violence and black-marketing) , of ALL FEDERAL FIREARMS REGULATIONS, of ALL FEDERAL TOBACCO REGULATIONS, of ALL FEDERAL ALCOHOL REGULATIONS, of ALL B.A.T.F. operations, of ALL National Security operations including the new “Q” force operations to silence 9/11 dissenters and journalists, of ALL Central Intelligence Agency (C.I.A.) operations, of ALL Homeland Security operations, of ALL D.A.R.P.A. spying operations on American citizens, of ALL NATIONAL Federal Emergency Management Agency (F.E.M.A.) operations, of ALL U.S. operations of ALL major International Banking Corporations connected to the recent Bail-Outs, of ALL U.S. operations of Investment Corporations and Insurance Corporations and Agencies which recently took monies from United States “BAIL OUT” theft/redistributio n n of wealth schemes and may have direct subversive/criminal ties to the International Monetary Fund and / or the Federal Reserve or major British Banking Corporations.

    * IMMEDIATELY VOIDING, PROHIBITING AND THE RECTIFICATION THEREOF: of ALL NON-VIOLENT DRUG OFFENDER PRISON/JAIL SENTENCES AND FURTHER SENTENCING AND CHARGES ACCOMPANIED WITH THESE TYPES OF CHARGES AND CONVICTIONS SHALL BE MADE RESTORED TO SOCIETY BY THE SUBSEQUENT RELEASE FROM ANY JAIL OR PRISON/CORRECTIONAL FACILITY/PROGRAM and of such charges be dropped, no longer pursued, and closed for Historic Record only of the OFFICIAL END TO THE DRUG WAR in the United States of America OF ANY and ALL SUCH PRISONERS OF RIGHTFUL CITIZENSHIP SHALL BE RELEASED IMMEDIATELY ALL such Probations and Paroles be ended IMMEDIATELY, thus saving Taxpayers everywhere the relief of over-crowded Courts and detention facilities (to the point now; the U.S. has many “Corporate Prisons” run by private business) and then there is all of the wasted tax-dollars by the rogue government elements making themselves rich as they re-direct such funds often times, that could be recovered by The U.S. Treasury.

    ALSO: of ALL FOREIGN-AID MONIES scheduled to be sent out in ANY form TO ANY nation, of ALL prisoners either sentenced or being held if suspected of being tortured while incarcerated, of ALL OFFICIAL ALLY-SHIP TREATIES including N.A.T.O. (while still encouraging our former democratic allies to band together AND while declaring that they can always apply for State-Hood to join the United States of America), of ALL phone line transmission/ relay TELEFONIC/data-related services owned by foreign interests. Such companies and assets shall be seized by the U.S. Treasury, ran in continuation by the U.S. Military temporarily, and resold to American citizens at a later date with proceeds to be placed into the U.S. Treasury. This is because of the BLATANT closed-discussion of controlling ALL of U.S. Communications AND security by ANY foreign interests is in itself SUBVERSION if not ACTS of Treason.

    ALSO; voiding ALL Life-time appointments of ALL FEDERAL JUSTICES even at the Supreme Court Levels and the vacating of these positions until normalizations are completed and the Republic has been restored in earnest, of ALL Catholic Church and related assemblies unless affidavits are sworn by church leadership to be dis-avowed from following the dictates of The Vatican because it is another sovereign nation.

    ALSO; of ALL Masonic emblems presently worn by State Troopers throughout the United States of America, of ALL FORCED or MANDATED Radio Frequency Identification Chips and Implant Agendas, of ALL FEDERAL ABORTION AGENDAS because this should be a States Rights issue (especially since it has since been established that the trials to set forth this agenda were fraudulent by the participants public admissions), of ALL Bill-of-Rights and Constitutional impairing regulations, of the National Emergency declared just a few days after F.D.R. took office (REVISED WAR POWERS ACT of 1917) and of ALL Presidential Directives, Executive Orders/OTHER made since the time of J.F.K.’s death under such authority,

    ALSO the VOIDING of ALL subsequent lawsuits that may be inherent due to these circumstances that the Armed Forces now takes the general risks to correct so that our courts are not further encumbered.

    * THE IMMEDIATE RECOGNITION: of ALL STATES RIGHTS AS MEMBERS OF THE SEVERAL UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and due to the amount of constant TREASONOUS ACTS perpetrated upon the peoples and citizens of the several States and the Native American Tribes; the military should be accepting applications for PEACEFUL SECESSION(s) and that these extreme measures should be granted if (after an adjustment period to the new constitutional normalizations) public referendum has been studied, and public sentiment concurs, from any member States of the several States, it should be granted prior to this state of Martial Law’s expiration.

    YOU SHOULD ALSO BE ANNOUNCING:

    * That ALL transitional measures and ALL Military “News Releases and Results” WILL BE REPORTED AS SENT FORTH IN ALL TRANSPARENCY and in real-time by the media outlets throughout the United States of America by the U.S. Military OR if not reported ‘as is’ and in ‘real-time’, ALL assets of UN-cooperative agencies, networks or outlets and their owners shall be charged with SUBVERSION and ALL related assets SHALL BE IMMEDIATELY SEIZED for the U.S. Treasury to resale at a later date to American Citizens and proceeds will be collectively kept in the U.S.Treasury.

    * That ALL efforts will be made to confiscate properties and production facilities of the OIL-ROBBER-Baron (Bush, Vanderbilt, President Johnson-connected) assets if so proven to be complicit in ANY scheme or ACT of SUBVERSION towards the American Citizenry through connections financially or otherwise with corrupt/invested politicians and again; ALL assets public and private shall be seized by the U.S. Treasury for repayment of debts and resold to American Citizens.

    ALSO; ALL efforts shall be made mandatory to sell assets from ALL large oil fields in the United States and to resell oil-products partially for national debts including ALL Oil and Natural Gas reserves in Alaska and Oil Reserves in eastern Montana and western North and South Dakota for these same purposes (these are much larger than all middle-eastern oil supplies COMBINED many times over- IF 10% were sold for national-debt purposes it would make the U.S. completely “debt free”).

    *That ALL United Nations operations and assemblies within the United States shall be prohibited and the United Nations headquarters in New York City shall be confiscated by the Treasury and sold as assets to the American Citizens and that the proceeds will be kept in the U.S. Treasury.

    ALSO; that the United States officially withdraws from this organization of dictators, communists, fascists, and other tyrannical world representatives and that we declare the organization to be fraudulent.

    ALSO; that ALL school books and materials being sold or donated to ANY U.S. school of lower or higher learning by ANY Globalist Agenda group, or individual shall be prohibited under penalties of SUBVERSION charges (Rockefeller Foundation, Vanderbilt Foundation, Carnegie Foundation etc., or ANY “One World” agenda-teachings etc.,.).

    ALSO; that ALL satanic and occultism books in U.S. schools that teach dark-arts and practices shall be immediately removed to preserve our youth from further corruption. ESPECIALLY the books that give specific instructions on various rituals and those that advocate sexual orgies and blood-sacrifices.

    ALSO; that EACH student of ALL U.S. schools in ALL Elementary and High Schools shall be REQUIRED TO BE taught EACH YEAR (according to student grade-levels) a course of study on The BILL-of-RIGHTS, Civil Rights, and Despotism) in order to promote a good understanding of Individual Rights and Responsibilities of living in a truly Free Society.

    ALSO; ALL such students shall be taught in High Schools the responsibilities of JURY DUTY and that ANY JUROR CAN find ANY person NOT-GUILTY as a protest to unjust laws regardless of the evidence held/presented against the individual on trial.

    ALSO; that ALL Gold-Fringed American Flags shall be removed immediately from ANY Policing Dept./Agency, Civic Authority, Court Room etc.,. that is NOT UNDER DIRECT CONTROL OF SITTING Military Personnel. These flags HAVE NO COUNTRY and represent MILITARY CONTROL / MARTIAL LAW and have NO PLACE in the civilian sector of the United States of America.

    ALSO; that OFFICIAL INQUIRY AND REVIEW SHALL be made into the origins and business and other practices that helped to determine the (slave?)-Stripes originating from the West Indies Trading Company and (Masonic/Occultism/ Satanic?) -Stars on “Old Glory”. ALSO THAT: The Golden Gadsden Flag (“DON’T TREAD ON ME”) SHALL BE CONSIDERED as a New Standard for our nation because it’s origins are NOT FROM ANY GOVERNMENT but evolved from pre-national days “Of The People, By The People, and For The People”.
    ———— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——-
    RECOMMENDED INVESTIGATIONS AND OTHER CONSIDERATIONS: DURING THE STRUCTURED TEMPORARY TERM OF MARTIAL LAW WITHIN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA;
    ———— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— ——— —-
    * into ALL POSSIBILITIES OF THE (what by then should be) “UNSEALED” JFK FILES and OF ARRESTS and OF SEIZURES of ALL ASSETS of the traitors/criminals etc. according to the discoveries made.

    * into ALL 31ST, 32ND, and 33RD-degree FREEMASONS on U.S. soil and into ANY Subversion and or Treason connections or patterns. Including the VOIDING of ALL Masonic emblems from U.S. Treasury issued currency.

    * into ALL PEOPLES DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE “GULF OF TONKIN”, THE “U.S.S. LIBERTY ATTACKS” and concealment of these false-flag operations,

    * into THE “WACO” INCIDENTS (including the DEATHS of FIVE-(5) F.B.I.-agents immediately thereafter that were assigned to determine the exact order of events; of whom ALL apparently disagreed with the OFFICIAL Waco-story),

    * into THE “OKC BOMBING” INCIDENT (including the activated-mines found INSIDE THE BUILDING at the bottom of main pillars that hadn’t detonated, the BATF’s ability to show up in relative SECONDS AFTER THE BLAST– IN FULL BATTLE-ARMOR the morning of the attack, the BATF’s uncanny ability TO BE OUTSIDE AND WAITING FOR AN EVENT OF SOME GREAT IMPORTANCE AND DANGER for the building THAT PARTICULAR MORNING, and “WHY” even after AIRFORCE GENERAL PARTIN who is an Explosives Expert; tried to stop the destruction of the remains of the structure it was ORDERED REMOVED COMPLETELY WITHIN 5-DAYS),

    * into The COMMERCE SECRETARY-RON BROWN’s AUTOPSY REPORTS after his untimely death from bullet wounds to the head after being ordered aboard a doomed-to-crash military transport craft in a terrible storm (these events seemed to be directly related to Mr. Brown’s determinations NOT TO GIVE CHINA U.S. High Technology Computers and Access to related information which was done anyway AND tours of CHINESE LEADERSHIP OF ALL Sensitive Military Areas of interests and ALL U.S. Patents, ALL about that same time-frame in historic perspective),

    * into THE ATTACKS of 9/11 in ALL DETERMINATION TO PUNISH THOSE THAT ARE TRULY GUILTY (including MARVIN BUSH), and those individuals still alive from the Israeli company of doing all the secret-but-noisey work on many floors of BOTH TOWERS just a few weeks before the “attack”,

    * into THE MISSING GLOBAL HAWK military aircraft (Painted like an “AA” airliner) and the subsequent missile attack on the ONLY AREA in The Pentagon that was having large-scale construction done to it (just opposite of Donald Rumsfeld’s office where it was where the aircraft’s approach came from, then dramatically turning to hit the opposite side of the building), and into DOV ZAKHEIM (in charge of LARGE REMOTE-CONTROLLED AIRCRAFT?) and another DUAL ISRAELI-American citizenship holder and Comptroller and Chief Financial Officer of the United States Dept. of Defense (remember the “TRILLIONS MISSING” on 09/10/01-DONALD RUMSFELD reported) and President Bush’s senior foreign policy advisor/handler during the 2000 campaign who fled to Israel right after the attacks of 9/11,

    * into THE MISSING BLOOD AND MISSING BODY PARTS IN PA. “crash site”/”metal drop” (completely missing ANY evidence that ANY human remains were EVER THERE),

    * into THE SAME TYPE OF EVIDENCE-REMOVAL as the OKC-Bombing ALSO happened during 9/11 aftermath with all of the steel/other remains etc.,being hurriedly shipped out of the country and kept under guard until it was off of U.S. Soil.

    * into ALL DEPLOYED USAGES OF “DEPLETED URANIUM”, ALL LONG-RANGE PROJECTED REALITIES after use, and ALL RELATED ILLNESSES OF U.S. CHILDREN/OTHERS FROM SUCH DEPLOYMENTS.

    * into ALL REPORTS (the now shut-down “Idaho SPOTLIGHT” nationwide newspaper) of F.B.I. leaks that reported the known whereabouts of FIVE SUITCASE-NUKES reporting that it was even known the States they were in and listed them, yet reported NO ARRESTS, APPREHENSIONS, OR even the promise to follow-up on the matter. “W-H-Y NOT”!?!?!??

    * into The REAL NUMBERS of War Fatalities from the middle-eastern wars. ESTIMATES reach 80,000 due to the fact that ONLY soldiers dieing ON THE FIELD OF BATTLE of CONFIRMED CITIZENSHIP were counted. That means everyone that died in-transport or at facilities off the field DIDN’T COUNT. ALSO; into the complicity of “night returns” of the American Military dead and injuried.

    * into THE SUBVERSIONS that have taken place concerning the non-properly ratified 16TH amendment (implying/allowing for the income taxes our forefathers fought against) and the alterations of the original 13TH amendment allowing “nobility” (Esquires / Lawyers) to hold high elected offices.

    * into The PROBABILITIES THAT THE COMMANDERS AND STAFF at The Pentagon CAN’T defend themselves against active military PATRIOTS that are highly skilled, highly motivated, highly pissed-off, and working together because they want AMERICAN JUSTICE from many of the Pentagon brass-leadership and their arrests for possible Acts of SUBVERSION and Acts of TREASON.

    ALSO; ALL efforts should be immediately made to use Magnetic (engines etc.) and / or other Over-Unity type of technologies to create the FIRST LARGE-SCALE FREE ENERGY SOCIETY ON EARTH. Including the burning of salt-water with radio-frequency waves, and other water as fuel and turning salt water into drinking water and using these technologies to improve any country that will share in the same journey towards the true LIBERATION of their citizens and mankind by using our Natural and God-Given Rights as their own. The possibilities are limitless, even to the point of a voluntary world government based in True Liberty someday before we explore the cosmos in earnest.
    BUT, CERTAINLY NOT ANY TYRANNICAL NEW-WORLD-ORDER that the U.S. MILITARY are being used to obtain for Globalist-Pirates (of the lowest order of human beings – see BOHEMIAN “GROVE” CLUB) and would-be slave masters and exterminators of the human race (at will) as they fulfill their Human-Predator type of aspirations! NEVER TO BE!

    AGAIN, ARMED SERVICES MEMBERS; YOU HAVE NO COUNTRY AT PRESENT. CAN IT BE SALVAGED? YES, AND IT MUST BE PRESERVED AT ALL COSTS. BUT THESE TYPES OF DRASTIC MEASURES ARE NEEDED RIGHT NOW.

    * NATIONWIDE ANTI-AMERICAN ROGUE GOVERNMENT EXERCISES ARE ALREADY SCHEDULED FOR LATE JULY 09 AND THREATS OF A COLLAPSING ECONOMY ARE JUST AS CLOSE.

    * IT WILL TAKE THE U.S. MILITARY’S EXPERTISE TO BE ABLE TO APPOINT MILITARY PERSONNEL and/or the proper American Citizens and/or SMALL MILITARY GROUPS TO MONITOR ALL ASPECTS OF THE FUNCTIONING GOVERNMENT LEFT (IN SOME FORM OF OPERATIONAL MODES) AND/OR APPOINT PEOPLE TO TEMPORARILY HEAD-UP AGENCIES/DEPARTMENT S/HIGH OFFICES LIKE THE U.S. TREASURY-Replacement(s) WILL NOW REQUIRE OF THE MILITARY FOR EXAMPLE.

    ***EITHER WE RETURN TO OUR CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC, OR IT IS GOING TO LIKELY BURN AND IMPLODE, in the VERY NEAR future.***

    ALSO:
    DON’T BECOME PARTICIPANTS IN TREASON YOURSELVES BY CONTINUING TO FOLLOW WRONGFUL ORDERS AND THUS BECOMING ENEMIES-OF-LIBERTY AND HUMANITY.
    INSTEAD, START EARNESTLY ARRESTING THE TRAITORS THAT ISSUE SUCH ACTS OF TREASON AND SUBVERSION.

    DON’T BE FORCED INTO FIGHTING THE VERY BEST OF AMERICAN PATRIOTS AT HOME. WE ARE YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS, WE CARE ABOUT YOU, MANY VETS ARE AMONG OUR NUMBERS THAT ALSO HONOR YOU, WE CARE ABOUT YOUR CHILDREN, YOUR MEDICAL BENEFITS and OUR NATIONAL FUTURE. WE ARE WILLING TO STAND AGAINST ANYONE, ANY ARMIES, ANY TYRANTS AND EVEN FACING THE GREATLY OVER-WHELMING FORCES OF THE ARMED SERVICES OF THE PRESENT USA to defend our country.

    *** ALSO; IN THE EVENT where our soldiers turn against all they know to be true IT WOULD BE A TERRIBLE NATIONAL-SHAME AND THE UNACCEPTABLE ENDING OF OUR HISTORY, HERITAGES AND THE RESULTING CAUSE OF OUR NATIONAL DEMISE ***

    IT MAY TAKE THOUSANDS OF EXECUTIONS AND ARRESTS (including some Military officers) AND MILLIONS OF DEPORTATIONS. BUT WHATEVER THE COST TO PRESERVE OUR WAY OF LIFE; ITS THE LAST CALL OF THIS limited-OPPORTUNITY THAT WILL SAVE TENS-OF-MILLIONS (APPROXIMATELY 30 TO 100 MILLION AMERICAN LIVES OR MORE IN THE NEAR FUTURE) AND RESCUE THE WORLD FROM TOTAL ENSLAVEMENT.

    NOTE: IF YOU WOULD NEED LOCAL VOLUNTEER HELP, JUST ASK. WHEN AMERICANS BEGIN TO ENJOY SOME REAL LIBERTY, THEY WILL BE GLAD TO ASSIST OUR ARMED SERVICES LOCALLY ANY WAY THEY CAN. EVEN UNTO DEATH.

    ***THIS IS WHAT MUST BE DONE IF WE ARE TO SAVE OUR REPUBLIC; AND THE VERY HOPE-OF-LIBERTY ITSELF; FOR ALL TO SEE, ADMIRE AND INSPIRE TO BECOME LIBERTY SUPPORTERS THEMSELVES.

    ******* IT IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE ALTERNATIVE NOW *******

    THIS IS THE ONLY RIGHT THING TO DO, AND WE WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT WE STAND WITH YOU; AS AMERICAN CITIZENS, LIBERTY-PATRIOTS, AND HUMANITARIANS. WE STILL BELIEVE YOU ARE LOYAL TO YOUR COUNTRY AND IT’S PEOPLE, AND THAT’S WHY WE STILL REVERE AND HONOR YOU.

    MAY IT ALWAYS BE SO…

    LET IT ALSO BE KNOWN TO ALL THIS DAY: THAT THE VIGILANT AMERICAN PEOPLE WILL DEFEND OUR RIGHTS, WITH OR WITHOUT IT’S HONORABLE MILITARY LEADING THE WAY BACK TO OUR CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC OR SOMETHING CLOSER TO TRUE LIBERTY.

    RESPECTFULLY / SINCERELY,
    The SERVANT CHIEF COMMANDER (S.C.C.) of The LIBERTY GUARD

    AND OTHER…

    AMERICAN CITIZENS REQUESTING YOUR IMMEDIATE ASSISTANCE, INTERVENTION AND RESCUE.
    ____________________________________________________________

    The Golden Gadsden Flag and The LIBERTY GUARD

    About Our Flag… “The GOLDEN GADSDEN FLAG”

    There’s nothing but HONOR on THIS FLAG! It has stood faithfully in the face of tyranny before, serving Americans well when it was called upon to do so. It’s decree is CLEAR: “DON’T TREAD ON ME” in no uncertain terms. IT WILL ALWAYS STAND FOR LIBERTY IN THE STRONGEST OF SHOUTS!

    It’s most significant historical moments (“Finest Hours”) are still ahead. It has been reborn to active duty once more by Americans and has swiftly answered the call! The sound of the muster of the civilian militias in the several states is all it takes! It found itself into the hands of many people (Liberty Supporters) across this land once more. It PROUDLY DECLARES “LIBERTY” to the common man, and a DEADLY WARNING to ALL tyrants, common criminals, and even to the globalist-pirates of the New World Order of today.

    It’s very birth came from the hearts and minds of common folks. Who all just wanted to be left alone and free to pursue opportunities, hopes, ambitions and dreams to complete their lives.

    A truly “grass-roots” invention and evolution “of The People”, “by The People”, and “for The People”. It has my undying devotion and admiration.

    Of course, “WE’ (members of “The L.G.”) are Humanitarians…
    NOT a barbarian, tyrant, a guard-dog for such criminals, or a globalist-pirate.

    Oh, and we don’t have ANY PROBLEM with puttin’ some mad-dogs down either. Why do we say “mad-dogs”? Because they are completely out-of-their-minds if the enforcers of this nonsense think that ANYONE (normal) would choose GLOBAL-ENSLAVEMENT and The NEW WORLD ORDER’s Agenda 21-Genocide Programs; over LIBERTY, AND OUR DUTY TO DEFEND IT’S PRECEPTS!!!

    STAND-UP and BE COUNTED!

    LIBERTY NOW, LIBERTY FOREVER!!!
    DEATH TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER!!!
    scc/lg

    P.S. The LIBERTY GUARD HAS ADOPTED THIS (GOLDEN GADSDEN) STANDARD AS OUR ONLY BELOVED STANDARD from our inception. It represents OUR NATURAL AND GOD-GIVEN RIGHTS and the declared BILL-OF-RIGHTS in the U.S.C. along with The AMERICAN SPIRIT OF “LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL”. We know that anyone else who uses this Golden Gadsden standard for themselves, can’t be all bad. We’ll get along just fine. Of course, Liberty Supporters are still welcomed among our ranks, should you decide to join.

    Just write “RECRUITS” free_state_missouri@yahoo.com

      

  330. 330Anonymous on Aug 30, 2009 at 9:16 pm:

    Oh My God…

      

  331. 331Eddie Willers on Aug 31, 2009 at 2:24 am:

    Science is just a bunch of theories until proven True and Applicable on this Level of Reality. It is Contextual. If it is not proven true It’s BS and I don’t mean Bachelor of Science. Since Holdren and Eichlers theories have not panned out what they have to say isn’t worth the Paper it is written on. I don’t believe this is a issue of left versus right but one of Life Versus Death. Laws are written 1) To protect the Rights of the Individual from the Collective. This may be a Collective of Wealthy Elitist who are under the Delusion that they know what is Best for everyone else. Or Laws may be written to Protect the “Common Good,” which is an oxymoron for the Good is defined only by the Individual, so by Protecting the Rights of the Individual- HUMAN BEING- all Rights are protectected. 2) Laws are also written to protect certain classifications of citizintry at the expense of the”Common Good,’ all others of Society. The 2003 Medicare Act or The Banking Acts of the Last 10 Years. 3) Laws are also written in the Name of the Children, Usually a Red Herring to disguise TRUE INTENT. $0 Then there are Laws whose intent is to shove down the throat of anyone else who disagrees with my Beliefs of Morality. Everyone becomes Hysterical about ABORTION. I don’t believe that I have the Right to Tell another Individual that they are Immoral for Having an Abortion-Their are plenty of Politicians around that They are Proof that Abortions should be used. I Believe that a Womans Choice to Have an Abortion or Not is, between Her and God and NO ONE ELSE. We are very complex Beings for we are God, We have Just forgotten and in RE-MEMBER-ing, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, We MUST STAND UP FOR OUR RIGHTS, For we are endowed by our CREATOR these INALIENABLE RIGHTS. Our country is a GRAND EXPERIMENT in HUMAN SELF GOVERNMENT which was not perfect in the beggining and we are Reaping the Mistakes of our Forefathers. Now is the time to correct them and REALIZE the FOLLY OF GREED AND POWER. God Bless Us Everyone and yes even those who Betray the Principles of OUR GRAND EXPERIMENT. GoodNight and Good Bye.

      

  332. 332Jerry on Aug 31, 2009 at 7:03 pm:

    This just adds to the scenario where Obama just keeps on surrounding himself with radicals. He claims his 20 years of listening to the preacher that wants to damn America meant nothing to him. His political career is kicked off with support of a convicted bomber who still says that he did not do enough!. Now he is surrounding himself with Czars who are not vetted by congress. He was quoted as saying that the constitution is too full of what the government cannot do instead of the government should be doing. If we the people don’t stand up to this guy soon our America will not be the same free country that it was meant to be. The medial will not denounce what he is doing just look at those media types saying that the grass roots resistance to the Obama care legislation is all orchestrated and should be ignored. Basically they are all saying we know better than they do how to solve all these problems. God help us all.

      

  333. 333dkfhjfhfhljgla on Aug 31, 2009 at 11:51 pm:

    the internet is a wonderful thing, isn’t it?

    i hate to break it to “y’all”, but almost every united states president since grover cleveland (the one glowing, shining counter-example is bill clinton) has both endorsed and implemented some kind of means of population control; forced sterilizations, diseases hidden in vaccinations, war for the sake of war, even some small scale public gassing. i’m dead serious about the last one; look up the time that giuliani sprayed nerve gas all over african american neighborhoods in nyc in order to “kill mosquitoes” and “stop the spread of west nile”.

    bush had an army of them working for him, primarily located in the manhatten institute. there’s some evidence that AIDS may be a population control tactic. nixon, kennedy and johnson sprayed agent orange all over south-east asia to keep the population down. reagan slaughtered millions in latin america for no apparent reason other than to stop them from breeding. would anybody like a small pox blanket?

    it’s not a left/right thing, it’s not a new thing and both republicans and democrats have taken part in it. the need for some kind of tactic here is, like global warming, one of those things that scientists just take for granted because the evidence is really just not arguable. still, the history of eugenics is a huge topic that you can spend months studying and still be not totally clear on. forget about holdren, he’s pretty small time in the big scheme of things and actually pretty MODERATE in comparison to what some of the people in power have both suggested and implemented; see the above examples. everything i’ve heard from holdren is pretty standard “introduction to ecology” kind of stuff; it’s about carrying capacities and what not. he seems to be a lot more interested in approaching this reasonably than even the people in the bush administration were.

    i don’t know if “y’all” realize it, but the shocking expose here is little more than reading the notes from a first year university lecture.

    that brings us to the unfortunate part of all of this…

    unfortunately, there really are way too many people on the planet and something really does need to be done about it. this is no more debatable than that 2 + 2 = 4. rabbits breed like, well, rabbits. but, there are predators that eat rabbits. nothing eats us. if you let a bunch of rabbits loose in an area where there are no predators, you’ll be knee deep in rabbits in a few years.

    it’s not a question of space, as some seem to think. it’s a question of production. our ability to produce food is not unlimited. if we keep breeding like rabbits, we’re going to face some impossible to resolve population problems and be forced to make some gruesome decisions.

    it’s one of those “we can do this the easy way or the hard way” kinds of things. we have two options.

    1) the hard way: ignore it. if we do this, we’ll eventually end up shooting each other over corn fields and herds of cattle. we’ll have to implement some kind of genocide to reverse the problem or accept living in a totally dystopic anarchy. do you want that?

    2) the easy way: implement some softer social engineering tactics that will prevent us from descending into the third reich. this means doing things like pushing condom use, providing funding for (wanted) abortions, encouraging more women to enter the labor force and maybe implementing taxes on people that have too many kids.

    the most controversial thing that holdren has ever said is his suggestion that people that have too many kids should be taxed for it.

    so, recognize the reality: this is a serious problem that needs to be addressed and holdren is actually one of the good guys in the sense that he’s spent decades exploring ways to resolve the problem legally and fairly. holdren’s papers and texts are about ways to resolve the upcoming problems of overpopulation WITHOUT resorting to the kind of barbarity that marked past presidential policies. it’s a touchy subject, but try to approach it rationally and reasonably. if you do, you may find yourself agreeing that these are serious concerns that need to be dealt with. how do we stop people from having so many kids without actually forcing them to? how do we get people to understand why it is that this is a serious issue? how do we bring the population down in ways that do not infringe on the rights of living people?

    at the very least, in order to get a more balanced view of the subject of eugenics, i would suggest researching the following key people/organizations/ideas/whatever:

    1. francis galton
    2. thomas malthus
    3. organo-phosphate
    4. IG Farben
    5. agent orange / vietnam war
    6. eugenics in america (1900-2009, particularly 1900-1920)
    7. harry laughlin
    8. josef mengele
    9. rockefeller family
    10. harriman family
    11. bush family
    12. depleted uranium
    13. manhatten institute
    14. rudolph giuliani

      

  334. 334IloiloKano on Sep 2, 2009 at 7:13 am:

    I would ask “dkfhjfhfhljgla” to simply drop the charade and post your real name, i.e. “John Holdren”.

      

  335. 335Anonymous on Sep 2, 2009 at 8:44 am:

    In interestingly enough, it appears that Holdren isn’t Obama’s only “world depopulation” advocate – Obama’s health advisor is Dr. Ezekiel Emmanuel, who recently authored articles advocating denial of health care based on “social” reasons:

    For example, see the two JAMA articles cited here:

    http://www.nypost.com/seven/07242009/postopinion/opedcolumnists/deadly_doctors_180941.htm

    Then compare to Dr. Leo Alexander’s observations on how the Nazis “turned” the German medical establishment in the 1930s:

    http://www.chninternational.com/leo_alexander_.htm

    Firghtening!

      

  336. 336Anonymous on Sep 3, 2009 at 7:10 am:

    hello folks:

    I actually know John Holdren- he likes people just fine, he has an extended family that completes with any persons for size and happiness. He has his own children and grandchildren. Once when I met him at a family christmas party he was befuddled by a cell phone. He likes to fish, in fact it is a passion. He likes dogs. My 7 year old daugher spent an afternonn last June walking his dog- and he did not even try to take her away from me. He likes baseball and avid fan you might say- he is a Red Soxs fan. His wife is sister to my step-fathers’ brother in law (say that real fast) If he meets poeple he does not try to impress you- actually he rather likes to listen. If you want to engage him intellectually he will accomadate you.
    Regarding his populaton control if only he advocated the bombing and decimation of other populations then most people on the right would champion him. What really makes me laugh are the people who pusht the “nazi,” button. Most right wing people in the 30′s thought Hitler was okay- including on Prescott Bush.

    One thing i would have to say to John is that here in America people listen and read a lot. And many people here in
    America are Rationalists who believe that ideas and the words that frame them actually exist!

    I have never personally challenged him on his views or his writings. And if he is plotting to take over the world he sure is unassuming about it.

    If you would like to meet him meet the monster face to face let me know just bring some beer , a fishing pole, and some bait.

      

  337. 337debbie turnbull miller on Sep 3, 2009 at 7:55 pm:

    I agree completely with John Holdren and am glad other people like myself aren’t afraid to say so either. Too many human beings are a plague on the Earth-I love animals and trees much better.

      

  338. 338Anonymous on Sep 4, 2009 at 6:34 am:

    “Most right wing people in the 30’s thought Hitler was okay- including on Prescott Bush. ”

    Gee, you mean like Teddy Kennedy’s dad, Joe? You know, the guyFDR himself removed from his ambassadorship for being too pro-Hitler.

      

  339. 339Annonymous on Sep 4, 2009 at 8:45 am:

    John Holdren is the Teresa and John Heinz Professor of Environmental Policy On Leave Science, Technology and Public Policy Program, Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs at HARVARD UNIVERSITY, KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT. Teresa Heinz is Senator John Kerry’s wife. They’re all in it together. What a tangled web and a frightening one at that.

      

  340. 340Anonymous on Sep 5, 2009 at 10:58 pm:

    This is horrible!!

      

  341. 341AJ on Sep 6, 2009 at 7:54 am:

    I read your passage and yes, Holdren and Ehrlich are monsters. I am a pro-life single, teenage pregnant mother. Holdren proposes to take everything that I stand for away from me and other people in my position. Mass sterilization against American citizen will, forcing mothers to abort our children and taking them away from us, and limiting family size! And the man, who has proposed all of these ideas and whole-heartedly believes in them, now has power. Since Obama has taken office, the world has become a much scarier place.

      

  342. 342Anonymous on Sep 6, 2009 at 8:50 am:

    It’s sad that so many people are so uneducated that they simply believe the Earth can support an unlimited supply of people. I’d ask you to look at Haiti, and island with far more people than it can support. The island already relies on food and supplies from other countries when in reality no one should give them anything. It’s their fault for making children when they can’t even feed themselves. Eventually at this rate and with this level of ignorance the Earth will turn into Haiti and well there aren’t people on the moon to send us food at that point. Then we all will suffer the level of disease, poverty, and hunger now suffered in Haiti.

      

  343. 343Elon on Sep 6, 2009 at 8:53 am:

    You know what is more frightening to me? The fact that the majority of people suffer from low cognitive and reading comprehension efficiencies, compounded with a psychological urge to pander to one’s confirmation bias.

    Nit picking excerpts out of context of 1000 pages is exactly what’s being utilized here. The fact remains Holdren and his co-authors merely enunciated such methodologies implemented in the past and illustrated their constitutionality in the context of being on the verge of “doomsday” scenario. What constitutes a doomsday scenario? When the planet is so over-populated — a term subjective in its nature — that the “entire” citizens compete for resources to merely survive. By no means, and they have indicated this very point in the book on several occasions, they are suggesting such measures to be realized but rather scholarly examined at the time of writing such piece.

      

  344. 344Anonymous on Sep 6, 2009 at 9:20 am:

    It all sounds so horrible and disgusting. Do we actually know the actual reason for the writing and subsequent publication of the book? Does anyone actually believe that something like this could be enacted? Isn’t this just a bit too alarmist because you have no idea the context under which it was written? Let us burn him at the stake before he gets out of hand. Get a grip on reality. The links are the real story here, “Obama’s Science czar Says” I find all of this pathetic.

      

  345. 345garrick on Sep 6, 2009 at 9:40 am:

    That, was a great piece of work, Zombie.

    John P Holdren, is a definate, eugenicist, and a control freak.
    It, should make everybody, wonder what’s oboma’s true views of the socioeconomic structure of our planet, since he claims to be the prince of peace.

    I do disagree with you on the over population issue. Human beings have a lifespan around a hundred years, thats just the bat of an eye when comes to time on our planet. Everybody’s ultimate faith is death, mother earth definately knows what she needs, over human history i’m sure their’s been population booms. I do believe, the earth regulates.

    Nano technology, brings a true discussion on the subject, with selfreplicating technology, and lifextension technologies. This is a field that must watch, and full discloser must be given to the public, on there findings. Saying that, i believe in selfreplicating technology when it comes to physical structures and food.

      

  346. 346BabsJay on Sep 6, 2009 at 10:54 am:

    Wonderful analysis, Zombie. The problem with people who believe in doomsday theories is that they make outrageous proposals, and shouldn’t be in positions of high power. You might be interested in a book entitled “The Ghost Map,” by Steven Johnson, if no one has mentioned it before. On page 234 he discusses population facts, and that the numbers do not support Ehrlich. Birthrates are dropping world wide, and not only in industrialized nations.

      

  347. 347hungry on Sep 6, 2009 at 9:16 pm:

    These people have no business in power over people .

      

  348. 348FW on Sep 11, 2009 at 12:20 am:

    Most of us go by the unconscious supposition that other people, particularly those in positions of power, tell the truth. This is because we WANT to believe that they tell the truth. Nothing would unsettle us more to know that the Twin Towers weren’t actually brought down by passenger aircraft flying into them, or that the real people who pull the strings are not the politicians, but vast, unbelievably wealthy corporations, owned by a few unbelievably wealthy and influential individuals behind the scenes, who have a vested interest in controlling world society, because to them, money is no longer of significance, but power, world power, planetary power, clearly is.

    So Holdren assures the world that what he wrote in the 70′s was just a textbook; by implication, he says that it was not to be taken seriously. Since when does a man take the trouble to write a textbook for influencing students and future social policy, if he doesn’t intend for his words to be taken seriously?
    Haven’t we seen and heard enough? By all means, do the research on subsequent books of Holdren’s and the Ehrlichs (ehrlich = honest in German, as a matter of interest). I doubt if their opinions have changed much. The fact that Holdren himself has attained the position he now has, seems ample evidence to me, that he holds even more strongly to that opinion. The Powers that Be behind the Obama Administration wouldn’t bring anyone who didn’t hold to their own socialist, anti-Judeo/Christian ethic into the mix.

    Words are cheap to such people. Truth isn’t absolute. The truth is only what they mean it to mean at the time. If it becomes expedient to alter the perceptions of what others hear, then language will be tampered with, definitions altered with the deliberate intention to spread confusion and deception. Lies.

      

  349. 349FW on Sep 11, 2009 at 12:26 am:

    Anonymous, 3rd September said: “… John Holdren- he likes people just fine, he has an extended family that completes with any persons for size and happiness. He has his own children and grandchildren. Once when I met him at a family christmas party he was befuddled by a cell phone. He likes to fish, in fact it is a passion. He likes dogs.”

    I’m sure he is a delightful man in many ways. So were the people responsible for the Nazi concentration camps.

      

  350. 350wanumba on Sep 11, 2009 at 12:07 pm:

    Thank you zombie for the excellent work you’ve done on this – and all your work.

    Noticed up there a professional disinformation comment about Bush and AIDS.

    I am an eyewitness to CDC virologists who were investigating rumors of entire villages dying of a mysterious disease in Western Kenya in 1980-81. Note the dates – 1980-81. After about a year of trying to locate the source of the rumors – SOMETHING was going on, the CDC epidemiologists determined at last that the reports were coming into Kenya FROM Uganda. Due to dangerous instability at the end of Idi Amin’s reign of terror in Uganda, the Kenya-Uganda border was still closed so the doctors were unable at that time to enter Uganda. As soon as the Ugandan siutation settled enough, virologists were inside Uganda, discovering the rumors were true. The mysterious disease later became known as HIV/AIDS.
    It came out of Uganda.
    Idi Amin was unusually brutal, indulging in blood rituals and murder and debauchery. WIth animal sacrifice and human sacrifice common in tribal rituals, especially rituals to gain/hold power, the opportunities for primate-human transmission of the HIV/AIDS virus would have been greatly enhanced. LIve sacrifices of monkeys and apes would give plenty of chances of infecting humans through bites from frantic animals – during capture, captiivity and slaughter.

      

  351. 351wanumba on Sep 11, 2009 at 12:48 pm:

    I’m probably the only one on this thread who’s actually held a job to feed starving children in Africa, followed by humanitarian food aid adminstration and distribution and montoring. I KNOW what starvation looks like, up close. But I am 100% in opposition to Ivory Tower cocooned intellectuals who see “people” as a word printed on a page or a two -dimensional photograph, not as human biengs, with hopes and dreams, life and laughter. Academics who sit around in bubble chambers reinventing the world into their narrow views are destructive, and emotionally stunted in their compassion for others, ESPECIALLY those who are DIFFERENT from them. Selfish, self-centered and stingy. How awful that great prosperity would produce such Scrooges instead of generous and happy, well-adjusted people.

    There is NO NATURAL, “Mother Earth” reason anyone should starve today. There is PLENTY of food, MORE than anyone needs. Starvation today is caused by either social or political reasons – all manmade – either mistakes or deliberate malfeasance. 80% of the children we worked with were starving -severe malnutrition of marasmus or kwashiorkor – during non-famine times, many unable to rebound out of measles, with parents not knowing how to feed their children a therapeutic diet their weakened bodies could handle, (easily fixed with nutrition counseling) but most of the kids were children of SECOND WIVES. Polygamy was the underlying reason for 80% of severe malnutrtion in that region. Haiti suffers from not too many people, but a cleptocracy government with a pattern of mis-management, and interference, thru poor governing and lack of security for businesses in establishing a genuine free market. The grubby truth hiding behind the cool academic presentation for population control proponents is racism. Racial bias comes to the fore always with population worries. Nigeria has 100 million people and the raised eyebrow is , “Too many kids running around.” Japan has 100 millon people and no ones says “Too many Japanese.” Haiti is APPARENTLY overrun, but with more land, more beach/fishing and fewer people than Singapore. But have NEVER heard SIngapore lifted up as an excuse to steilize, hand out birth control pills or offer abortions.

    Malthus was wrong. He had no way to predict improvements in agricultural production. We currently have a global population Malthus would have said was impossible to achieve, by his calculations, by his now-discredited hypothesis.
    It should be questioned that if there seems to be “too many” children running about, why is money being argued to be allocated to population control, and not more SCHOOLS? Building schools is POSITIVE action, treating people as assets; choking off population growth is NEGATIVE action, treating people only as liabilities.

      

  352. 352Think4Yourselves on Sep 12, 2009 at 12:05 am:

    “If my people, who are called by My Name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land. Now My eyes will be open and My ears attentive to the prayers offered in this place.” -The G-d of Jacob, Isaac, & Abraham

      

  353. 353Anonymous on Sep 13, 2009 at 6:49 pm:

    Sounds like Communism to me. Maybe he is from China!

      

  354. 354Sue T on Sep 15, 2009 at 5:34 pm:

    I’m not too worried about the damage that John Holdren can do to our country. After seeing the incredible demonstration in Washington against the Obama administration he will be a one term President anyway.

      

  355. 355Anonymous on Sep 15, 2009 at 6:38 pm:

    I think we are looking at a raving lunatic a madman and wannabe dictator.He is a danger to our nation and the world.John Holden is a man we must watch very close.What I read here is that he is a seriously mentle person and you had better believe he doesnt care about life but loves power. To be in power with The likes of Barak Obama tells me we are in very grave danger make no mistake about that. This man is a danger to all people.Remember his name he may be the one that kills your grandchild or child one day.??? Who knows if he gets enough power he could decide we the people should die? I mean where do you draw the line? When you start killing people, Babies or otherwise you had better know there is no limit. This is the worse I have ever heard in the US. write your congressman and make sure they know you dont want this guy in our goverment! He in my opinion is a dangerous man very dangerous! Fits with this president to a tea.

      

  356. 356Anonymous on Sep 15, 2009 at 6:51 pm:

    I lived in Germany and I can tell you that they didnt think Hitler would REALLY cook people and hang them for simply disagreeing. But along comes Hitler and surprised were the germans that he would do this not just to the Jews but to the very people that voted him in.Well quess what ,we either get involved or we lose.Its just what we lose thats bad.

      

  357. 357Hubert Luns on Sep 16, 2009 at 6:45 am:

    Your article «John Holdren, Obama’s Science Czar, says: Forced abortions and mass sterilization needed to save the planet» is a sequel to the excellent book on eugenics, written by famous historian Edwin Black, called «WAR against the weak» or «Eugenics and America’s campaign to create a master race», published by Four Walls Eight Windows in 2003.

      

  358. 358vuurvogel on Sep 17, 2009 at 12:41 pm:

    Thank you for doing all this work. It looks like it took a lot of time and effort to analyze this very creepy material. You’ve done an amazing job at laying it out very clearly. Thank you.

      

  359. 359vuurvogel on Sep 17, 2009 at 12:48 pm:

    HABEAS CORPUS

    “I’ll tell you why, John. Because the the principle of habeas corpus upon which our nation rests automatically renders any compulsory abortion scheme to be unconstitutional, since it guarantees the freedom of each individual’s body from detention or interference, until that person has been convicted of a crime. Or are you seriously suggesting that, should bureaucrats decide that the country is overpopulated, the mere act of pregnancy be made a crime? ”

    HABEAS CORPUS – please note that Obama has NOT REINSTATED HABEAS CORPUS, after it had been removed by Bush. Now it is clear why.

      

  360. 360GoEagles on Sep 18, 2009 at 2:57 pm:

    I’ve just finished reading Zombie’s report on John Holdren (by the way, the blog is well named), and slogged through the comments. Now that was a scary ordeal. I’ve come to the conclusion that most of the commenters are not commenting on what John Holdren actually wrote, giving them the benefit of the doubt that they have actually read what he wrote, but what they hope they can convince themselves and others to believe he wrote. This goes for Zombie as well. Or, perhaps they just can’t understand what they read. This does not include Zombie; he knows exactly what he’s doing and is deliberately being deceptive and misleading.
    To those few sane voices, you waste your time arguing with these people. Their petrified opinions cannot be altered by facts.
    Maybe I’m being too harsh; maybe they just can’t comprehend the scholarly pursuit of knowledge. Perhaps it’s beyond their capacity to know that a person can articulate an idea, a position, a value, etc. and at the same time not agree with or promote it.
    God save us from those who know so much that just aint so (I play off an observation made by Mark Twain).

      

  361. 361annie on Sep 18, 2009 at 8:04 pm:

    http://www.youtube.com/colinpri1#play/uploads/1/vZVOU5bfHrMi
    overpopulation is a myth and obamacare–quick funny factual videos of interest

      

  362. 362Anonymous on Sep 20, 2009 at 12:17 am:

    When I was 18, my parents and my doctors- based on a standing diagnosis of schitzoaffective disorder- decided that I shouldn’t have children. My parents got me to sign what I was supposed to sign and say what I was supposed to say with a combination of threatening me with admitting me into a psychiatric hospital and nightmarish images of spending my entire pregnancy in one of those hospitals if I were to become pregnant. I am now 26, free of medication for 4 years, on the cusp of doing away with that bogus diagnosis, and sterile. There is a chance that I could have the tubal-ligation reversed. Technology is advancing more all the time.

    Forcible sterilization is about power. My parents knew they’d lose power over me if I got pregnant because I would have to stop taking the pills that were keeping me complacent, and I would know that I never needed them in the first place. This sicko knows that the best way to keep control of the population is breed out people who don’t share his views and to hold women hostage with the undeniable drive to have children. I desperately want a child of my own one day, and fight tears every time I hold someone else’s baby. It’s not just a physical desire for sex… it’s the drive to have a child. Threaten to take that away from a woman, and if you have the power to do it, she will likely do anything to keep it. By labeling people with different views as undesirable or socially deviant, he could take that away if he is allowed to keep going.

      

  363. 363fie on Sep 21, 2009 at 3:36 am:

    Overpopulation is a concern you shouldn’t take lightly. I don’t know the author. I don’t know his views. His direction is valid but his options aren’t freezable. There needs to be actions taken quickly as population growth is exponential. Having your child spayed or neutered is probably not the way we aught to go about this but it may come to that. Awareness is the first approach. I hate to think of this whole matter as a doomsday subject but for an idea of what may come watch Soylent Green.

      

  364. 364Lazarus on Sep 21, 2009 at 6:16 am:

    Cheap and abundant energy (oil) has made the population, industrial, technological, agricultural and economic explosions of the past 100 years possible. No other factor has contributed as much. If, as some experts believe, we are approaching the world’s peak oil production, and with no viable alternative means to power our society… than reducing the worlds population has become the primary means to extend, acquire, and control renewable and non-renewable resources. I suggest the following website:
    1)“Crash Course”: Chris Martenson. http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse

      

  365. 365Lazarus on Sep 21, 2009 at 6:24 am:

    Other than Zombies, this is the best site I have found describing “Population Control”.
    This will show you that Holdren is only one of a large group of people advocating population control.
    1)“Population Control”: Lien of OZ http://www.albatrus.org/english/lien_of_oz/family%20issues/population_control.htm#1.0 Introduction

      

  366. 366Anonymous on Sep 22, 2009 at 5:44 pm:

    I took a class from John Holdren when I was at Grad School in Berkeley. He is probably the most intelligent and hardworking person I have ever met. We are lucky to have him helping to follow the science to guide us through some very complex times.

    I stumbled across this site looking for information about Dr. Holdren, and I am deeply saddened that someone would go through so much effort to demonize a man who has devoted every hour of his life working to make this world a better place and ensure its safety. You should really take Erhlich’s advise from your own page: “anybody who actually wants to know what we and/or Professor Holdren believe and recommend about these matters would presumably read some of the dozens of publications that we and he separately have produced in more recent times, rather than going back a third of a century to find some formulations in an encyclopedic textbook where description can be misrepresented as endorsement.”

    There is too much as stake in our country and the world right now for such blatant partisan attacks, which only confuse and distract rather than offer meaningful debate. If you disagree on specifics, then by all means feel free to debate. But please do it constructively and rationally.

      

  367. 367Anonymous on Sep 22, 2009 at 9:03 pm:

    On judgment day, we will all have to stand before the same God. Lord have mercy.

      

  368. 368Diana Price on Sep 23, 2009 at 12:50 pm:

    Here in the UK, some children are taken from mothers, who have had some mental health, or learning disabilities, to boost adoption rates, although never admitted to, and won’t give the right support to help these parents.
    Also wrong cases of genetic cases of children, which were claimed by a british doctor to be of ‘abuse’ and not investigated properly, and the mothers were jailed, only then were they released, one committing suicide, and not able to cope with her remaining child and husband, after a few children had died of rickets, and other such things as bruising which were genetic problems, not abuse cases at all.
    It is widely known that the mass use of the ‘pill’ and contraception jab, cause major problems for the male infertility and other such problems, yes a great contraception, but at a cost as we all know, also used for treatment of ‘period’ problems, which in a large number of cases, could be treated with accupunture, sheer madness and lack of info!!!

      

  369. 369Anonymous on Sep 23, 2009 at 3:55 pm:

    Mr. Holdren,

    I have just read a number of your ideas on reducing the population.
    I must say that I am in complete agreement with you, so why don’t you go to the head of the line and set the example. Be one of the first to rid America and the world of idiotic, moronic, scum like yourself.

    Your ideas make men? [ I use the term very loosely] like Adolf Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Lenin, Pol Pot, Mao, Saddam Hussein, Khadafi, Castro and many more look like Sunday school teachers. It’s too bad your mother wasn’t faced with compulsory abortion, or take some sterilization medications before your birth. Too bad there wasn’t something in her drinking water to make her sterile.

    I surely hope that you do not have any children or grandchildren of your own, and if you do, why not get rid of them and rid the world of the surplus population, or at least sterilize them so there won’t be any chance of an increase in the population.

    Is it possible that you have a lot of hatred for your own mother. It’s hard to believe that God blessed your mother with the likes of you. I’m sure she would be real proud of her little boy today…. NOT!

    Adding a sterilent to drinking water ??? are you mad ?? or are you just a deranged moron and a tool of your father the devil?

    I remind you of a quote of yours:
    In today’s world, however, the number of children in a family is a matter of profound public concern. The law regulates other highly personal matters. For example, no one may lawfully have more than one spouse at a time. Why should the law not be able to prevent a person from having more than two children?
    Our God tells us to be fruitful and multiply.

    I trust you would read this from King David from the book of Psalms:

    Psalms 127:3 Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward.
    4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth.
    5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.

    I believe that in eternity future Mr. Holdren, you will be faced by all those whom you seek to destroy and abort. You will also face the very God who allows you to breathe the air and drink the water He so graciously sees fit to allow you to partake of.
    You need to repent and turn from your wicked ways and thoughts.

      

  370. 370Anonymous on Sep 27, 2009 at 9:28 pm:

    You people are idiots. Of course he doesn’t think like this, that was a book he wrote when he was much younger, plus he was a coauthor so chances are he didn’t write half of it. And it’s all taken out of context, if you dipshits would actually read the actual book. If he actually thought like this why would he be chosen as advisor for the country?

      

  371. 371debraraes on Sep 28, 2009 at 12:56 pm:

    Well given that S 819 the so called Autism treatment accelerated act calls for mandetory surveilence and monitoring of every man, woman, and child with high or low functioning Autism (including Aspergers); it’s easy to ‘guess’ who the target (Steralization – population control) population is.

      

  372. 372Taylor B. on Oct 1, 2009 at 9:42 am:

    Wow. Thank you for shedding light on this matter. Isn’t it great to know that Americans are in the safe hands of men like John Holdren? What a relief.

      

  373. 373Anonymous on Oct 1, 2009 at 9:21 pm:

    John Holdren’s character is shown by the words he has written in his book. You can count on what comes from
    a persons mouth is in his heart. This appears to me to be evil. No value of life. God gave us life and he, John
    Holdren will someday answer for what he does and says. I am sure that a person does not change that dramatically when they have written a book about a subject.

    If he had those thoughts then I’ m asking him why he has changed and what took place to make that change.
    Why doesn’t he come out and just say it clearly with no flowery words. Simple – “I was wrong in thinking that way and writing that way. Etc.” He is still being deceitful and not forthcoming to the people of the United States.

      

  374. 374E Infidel on Oct 5, 2009 at 8:23 pm:

    This is just another dumb opinion folks. Nothing will come of it. Obama is not the anti-christ. Please get a grip.

      

  375. 375Anonymous on Oct 11, 2009 at 7:07 am:

    Zombie (good name, but not for the reason you think),
    Of course your analysis is out of context, despite “showing” the pages of the book. This is a textbook with a chapter describing population policies, from condoms to extreme policies that countries, or the world, might choose to implement in a catastrophe. Holdren and the other authors aren’t ADVOCATING these things, they are describing them.
    Thus, you are simply lying about his “beliefs” in order to do what crazy right-wingers always do: vicious personal attacks on people they fear.

      

  376. 376Robert Kemper on Oct 24, 2009 at 10:57 am:

    That whole band of wierdo’s in the Obama administration are certifiably insane.

      

  377. 377JIm on Oct 28, 2009 at 12:24 pm:

    Re: “You people are idiots. Of course he doesn’t think like this, that was a book he wrote when he was much younger, plus he was a coauthor so chances are he didn’t write half of it. And it’s all taken out of context, if you dipshits would actually read the actual book. If he actually thought like this why would he be chosen as advisor for the country?”

    Let me ask you a question. If at age 35 I recommend something patently inhuman and immoral, but disavow it years later, would you trust me? Would you think my basic character had changed? My principles? My understanding of the purpose and nature of human life? He didn’t say these things when he was eight or ten years old. He said them when he was a fully grown and formed man. Think about it.

      

  378. 378John Bayne on Nov 12, 2009 at 5:29 am:

    I am grateful for the information concerning John Holgren, Barack Obama and those in the system.

    The very first thing I would like to say concerning overpopulation is, that no matter how serious the problem is or gets the determining factor concerning how many children we can afford to have per person is entirely determined by how well that baby is going to be brought up. One could be a millionaire but to have a child that grows up like Adof Hittler, Josef Stalin, Mao Tse Tung or any other of those who causes tens of millions of people to be brutally murdered, then that millionaird cannot afford to have even one of those kind of children, keeping in mind that it is the upbringing and definitely not the genetic inheritance that determines whether or not a child turns out a monster or a huge benefit to manking such as William Wilberforce, Florence Nightingale, Mother Theresa of Calcutta or notorious like Jim Jones who caused around 850 of his followers to drink poison at gunpoint after having sexually preyed on them for a time in their British Guiana commune.

    Without God, His Holy Word, the Holy Spirit and of course His Ten Commandments, humanity is as cursed and in the red compared to animals, vegetables and minerals, as they are exponentially blessed in the physical world, when ruled by a good conscience instead of bestial inclination.

    You can believe for sure that God exists, as Caiaphas did, and be an atheist, knowing sufficiently from his spies that Christ had raised Lazarus to life after being dead in the grave, as to plan his death, while still advocating as a staunch Sadducee that there was no ressurection.

    Why this is so is because atheism is as much a belief as theism, just the negation of it, where all beliefs, by definition, are of the will, and not of the thoughts or opinions of fact.

    All humans whose heads are ruled by their bodies hate God and even more so resent the reality of having to account to Him one day for their abuse of their fellow man, as judged by the Ten Commanments, and all humans whose bodies are ruled by their heads which faithfully exercise the right action of their wills to obey the Voice of God in the soul of man, are theists.

    If we deny that God exists how can we justify forbidding a wealthy man who is willing to pay for organ and body part donations to fuel his cannabalistic tastes from cannabalism, especially if he is not advocating murder but donation of non vital parts to his cuisine rather than to be put into his body as in transplants?

    All one has to do in order to scientifically prove the existence of God, is to prove the existence of infinitiy in any way shape or form, such as the infinite particularity of gravity, as demonstrated by Galileo and denied by Aristotle about 15 hundred years before him, when he demonstrated that a larger steel ball will fall at the same speed as a smaller one, in fact, in a vacuum on the surface of this earth, a feather or a steel ball will both fall at 32′/sec/sec.

    By definition,he world of the infinite is in the finite world of space and time as evidenced in pure maths (geometry especially) but not of it. There is only the uncreate God in the world of the infinite and if one looks up into the heavens with integrity, one knows that because this physical world is based on the finite that it cannot go on forever even though, as far as human ability to plumb the depths of the finite universe, is as useless as if the universe did go on forever, but know this for sure that the only thing that does go on forever is the consuming fiery presence of our infinite God, so that for those that know this reality, the amazing thing is how God can make it possible for finite creation to live in the midst of this infinite blase furnace, so to speak.

    I say this so that those who abuse their fellow man, such as the Obama administration, keeping in mind that the people get the government that they deserve, cannot escape the fiery justice of our infinite God, according to the wonderful words of the converted apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:1-18, “This second epistle beloved, I now write unto you, in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour. Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water. Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should persih, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise and the elements will melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therin shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness. Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistle, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, To him be glory both now and forever. Amen.”

    No matter how bad or undesirable a person is we should realize, not only, but for the grace of God go I, but that should we used by the Lord to turn them the other way, as in a pendulum, they will become as good as they were bad, etc… so keeping this in mind we know not to judge the person but their actions and values (negative values that is).

    There is only four elemental classifications of all physical existence, divided into four kingdoms in two worlds of which the first kingdom, the mineral kingdom is equivalent of the inorganic world and the other three kingdoms in ascending orders of life constitute the physical organic world. These three kingdoms are the vegetable, animal and human kingdoms.

    In each of these kingdoms can be extrapolated four levels also in ascending order which in terms of themselves make 16 levels of physical existence as comprehensive and perceivable and useful as the periodic table so appropriately classifies all of the mineral kingdom.

    These 16 orders of existence begin the orders of life from the fifth level, and are as follows with the last four constituting the human kingdom:

    mineral minerals, vegetable minerals, animal minerals, human minerals, mineral vegetables, vegetable vegetables, animal vegetables, human vegetables, mineral animals, vegetable animals, animal animals, human animals, and finally in the human kingdom: mineral humans (wise as doves and harmless as serpents with the heart of an adult and the mind of a child which are ruled by inclination), vegetable humans (wise as serpents and harmless as serpents, with the heart of an adult and the mind of an adult, also ruled by inclination) and animal humans (wise as doves and harmless as doves, which have the heart of a child and the mind of a child, which are ruled by a good conscience) and finally the only acceptable long term state for human beings, the Christian state, called Christian because of Christ’s admonition to “Be ye therefore wise as serpents and harmless as doves” which class of course as definitely ruled by the Word of God, and which class 100% wrote the Holy Bible under the conditions described by the Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 1:20 & 21: “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is ofany private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

    Human nature when unrestrained by the Holy Spirit is very avaracious so that it explains why all presumptuous and suicidal attempts to privately interpret the scriptures in spite of the dire warnings against this, are copyrighted, which is easily seen where the temptaton is, as the Gideon Bible Society once told me that they had distributed over 800 million Bibles in Russia, where not one of them was the Word of God but the Word of man, and of course copyrighted, so what is the royalties on 800 million bibles and what is this sin but the sin of
    simony, making trade of sacred things in a profane and presumptuous manner and causing weak and easily decieved souls to trust in the word of man thinking it to be the Word of God. A lot of the misery in the world today comes from this great device of Satan when he failed miserably to burn every real Bible. He know hides it like a needle in a haystack amongst possible thousands of spurious translations.

    Chrian regards

    John

    PS The best way to deal with exponentially escalating horrors is to be sealed with the Third Angel’s Message so as to make up the 144,000 so that when the last person is sealed for this definite number, Christ ceases His priestly ministration in the Holy of Holies, which is to complete the Investigative Judgment into everyone since Adam, and puts on His garments of vengeance, never to offer forgiveness of sins from that close of Probation. This however brings the world to an end some 12 months after, as He takes some 12 months to come with all of the angels in heaven to fulfil His promise His Second Coming, in 2 Thessalonians 4:13-18, “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died an rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Thenwe which are alove and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the ari:and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”

    Remember, of all humans the human humans are the only ones at the highest point of physical life to be in a position to say what comes next or higher, nothing or angels then God. 100% of those who wrote the Bible are human humans and as such are qualified to say.

    Who would not like an infinitely just and loving God to exist who puts us before Himself, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only beloved son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

    People laugh at the reality of God, because they live for now, according to the dictates of their carnal natures denying their spiritual, according to the words of James, in James 4:1-From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members? Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye havenot, because ye ask not. Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss,that ye may consume it upon your lusts. Ye adulterers and adutleresses, know ye not htat the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.”

    Note the word adult really means a child like heart corrupted by adulteration with the world, most likely in 2009 by the media such as television, rock music, and the like.

    We are not condemned by weakness or even sin itself which is like saying that we are not condemned for being evil as God has Christ as the remedy for sin sick humans, but there is no remedy for falsity or deliberately lying to oneself, as in John 3:19 which describes the only condemnation:

    “And this is thge condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.” John 3:19.

    How more false and lying to oneself than to refuse to regard unborn children as being equally human as post born children, and to put someone in jail for pouring petrol over an animal and yet ignore the unbelivable agony that abortion causes unborn children let alone depriving them of life so that the mother can continue living a promiscuous life. I say promiscuous because of the number of cases of rape victims who do not scream out for abortions like those self centred licentious females that insist on the right to abort and continue so that they are guilty of multi on going abortion for convenience, and these mother’s really love the offspring of the person that raped them, proving that the child should not suffer for the sins of the parents.

    It is utterly presumptuous to assume that the child of a rapist should be genetically bound to be a rapist, this totally ignores the fact that that raptist did not have to wilfully choose to waste his opportunities which the offspring now has an equal right to choose good, and in these cases of having loving mothers in the victims of the rape this will almost certainly be the case.

    The person with the most superior concept of how a thing should be is in the best position, therefore unfortunate persons such as John Holdren, and Barak Obama, who have concepts of humanity that are as below average as we have heard to date in civilized Christian society, should be the last people to be in charge, but since the people have rejected God, they have sentance themselves to this.

    To quote young Albert Einstein while still a student, when correcting a presumptuos pro atheist professor who was bullying his class into denial of Christian faith based on the fact: That if God existed He created everything and since evil exists He created evil and since the works of a person defines whether they are good or evil God, if He exists must be evil.

    Albert Einstein first asked this professor if cold existed, whereupont the professor scorned him by saying that of course it did, but Albert soon proved that cold did not meet the scientific criteria for existence but was rather a term that humans invented to describe the absence of heat. Albert then asked if darkness exists and similarly showed how that darkness also was a term that we invented to describe an abscence of light.

    Finally, Albert asked the professor if evil exists, whereupon he also showed how that evil is a term that we humans use to describe an absence of God, where it fails also to meet the scientific criteria for existence. So that God can exist, and create everything without being evil.

    The professor sat down, but I am sure he continued to live in self denial. His choice, but he will have to answer for it.

      

  379. 379milan mitic on Nov 15, 2009 at 5:43 pm:

    climate engineering

    huge tides = huge erosion of
    land tidal channels = land desalination = more rain = huge carbon sink
    = cooler climate
    see:

    http://whitepaper.climatechange.gov.au/greenpaper/consultation/pubs/0929-mitic.pdf
    or
    http://www.royalcommission.vic.gov.au/Submissions/View-Submissions

      

  380. 380DK on Nov 20, 2009 at 1:43 pm:

    Bizarre thinking on Holdren’s part just allows him to fit in with Obama’s line up of kooks. Will the new Health Care Bill pay for straight jackets? Check out blog at http://www.donottreadonus.wordpress.com

      

  381. 381niGii on Nov 23, 2009 at 11:05 am:

    Under questioning by Sen. David Vitter, R-La., during his Senate confirmation hearing, Holdren said he “no longer thinks it’s productive to focus on optimum population for the United States. … I think the key thing today is that we need to work to improve the conditions that all of our citizens face economically, environmentally, and in other respects. And we need to aim for something that I have for years been calling ‘sustainable prosperity.’”

    Vitter continued with his line of question, asking directly, “Do you think determining optimal population is a proper role of government?”

    Said Holdren: “No, senator, I do not. … I think the proper role of government is to develop and deploy the policies with respect to economy, environment, security, that will ensure the well-being of the citizens we have.”

      

  382. 382MasterMayhem on Dec 7, 2009 at 2:41 am:

    Yes Paul and Anne Ehrlich and John Holdren are alarmists. I’ve read The Ehrlich’s population books and reports and they have many pretty absurd, exaggerated conclusions and predictions. But the interesting thing is many of their predictions ARE coming true. Professional fishermen are reporting that fish stocks in the oceans are so depleted they have to go more than 200 miles further today than they did a decade ago to catch adequate poundage just to break even. Nearly every natural habitat that wild fish spawn in is threatened or endangered. That’s not coming from the Ehrlichs, that’s directly from the pertinent organizations and agencies charged with monitoring the fish stocks. It’s happening so fast that governments are getting desperate, even cooperating with one another. Imagine that. The EU is passing laws and regulations in concert with Asian and Oceanic governments to attempt to deal with the crisis. Everyone knows that hunters and fishermen are the most reliable source of information regarding animal populations. Likewise, farmers are the first ones to report on no longer increasing crop yields and even decreasing yields. This too was predicted by the Ehrlichs twenty plus years ago. Even a broken clock is right twice a day…

    Anyway, you sound paranoid and timid. This country, in fact the world, is being overrun by fat, selfish, dimwitted pussies. It’s time to be a man, and face reality, or whatever the hell else it is you’re so damn terrified of. I can smell the fear on you. Stop inundating yourself with all this mind pollution. The time to panic has long passed, so there’s no point in continuing to try to raise a ruckus. Seriously, it’s only Life and Death, but you’re acting like someone’s trying to steal your cookies. OK, maybe they are. But what are you doing about it? Crying? Shape up!

    I hope you realize that I’m just trying out my routine on the first radical blowhard I came across on the web. If I have offended you then…

      

  383. 383Apis on Dec 11, 2009 at 8:52 pm:

    I can’t speak for Holdren of course, but to me it seems you are overinterpreting some of what is written. The Chinese for example have limited the amount of children per person. It certainly doesn’t require any forced sterilization (something that unfortunately wasn’t all that uncommon during the previous century in also the western world, which is really horrible imo.) Now this isn’t something that was suggested to be done arbitrarily, but in response to mass-famine or epidemics for example. What is worst: millions of children dieing from starvation or a maximum of 2-3 children per person? (Although the lifeboat example above is indeed a false false dilemma, here, no one is suggested to be killed (that would indeed be terrifying) and it’s not a dilemma to begin with, but rather one “response” that might have to be considered.) I don’t think we are going to face mass starvation and other alarmist events because of overpopulation any time soon, but I do think our living standard is going to gradually decline because the planet will not be able to sustain our current tax on resources. I think hunger and diseases eventually will become more common, and in light of this, would limiting the maximum number of children per person (with caveats of course) be such a horrible idea?

      

  384. 384SamFox on Dec 13, 2009 at 12:26 am:

    Here is a letter I sent the St. Petersburg Time regard the TruthOMeter on their PolitiFact web site.

    “Dear St. Petersburg: Times:

    You say on the Truth O Meter section that Glenn Beck & others took John Holdren’s comments out of context. However at zombietime.com one is presented with Mr. Holdren’s comments in context. They show the whole pages the Holdren comments were quoted from. I am left with the impression that Mr. Holdren & the co-authors hold some very draconian views.

    Is it fair to ask that if Mr. Holdren and co made these statements but do not believe them, why did they make them? Perhaps the words “I advocate” this or that position did not appear in the book. However “I advocate” these ideas is tacitly stated by their very existence in a book that was written by these people. If they do not believe them, why did they bring them up in the first place? The fact that they did make these statements in a textbook means they intended to sow them into the minds of the students they thought.

    Your defense of Mr. Holdren & co-authors tells me that I cannot trust the veracity of PoliticalFact’s website. Your defense of Mr. Holdren and the ideas he postulated in the book is beyond the pale. I am left to conclude that you also support these ideas and offered a smoke screen that in my mind belies support for the progressive movements eugenics agenda.

    I conclude that Glenn Beck was correct and your cover up is very disingenuous.

    Thank you.

    My signature
    home town & state

    samfox@xxxyz.net (My Email address if you would like to correct me on my letter.)”

    Also they called Glenn Beck a liar for saying Andy Stern goes to the White House more than any one else. Here is a quote lifted from the TruthOMeter site-

    “We found the source of Beck’s claim. When the White House released its first batch of visitor logs on Oct. 30, 2009, as part of a pledge to bring more transparency to the White House, Stern’s name did indeed appear 22 times, more than anyone else listed, including Clinton, who was listed three times.

    But that’s not the whole story.”

    Not the whole story? That was Glenn’s story. I did not read any further. They said GB was telling the truth, then they muddy it up. I guess ya just can’t trust these people.

    SamFox

      

  385. 385james on Dec 21, 2009 at 4:34 am:

    We need to keep pushing the idea that liberals, progressives and Democrats are all in favor of forced abortions and mass sterilizations. The more people get fired up about this, the better off this country will be. Remember the Lord said he makes the sun shine on both the good and the evil and sends His rain to fall on both the just and the unjust.

      

  386. 386Katherine on Dec 23, 2009 at 10:32 am:

    I just finished reading Population Bomb by Paul Ehrlich. He most definately advocates all of this, and instructs you to proselytize his “solutions” to everyone, and everywhere.
    One of his “solutions” in the “Bomb” book is to make Catholicism illegal. Later on in the book, he gives you hints on convincing conservatives to support this type of population control by saying that overpopulation will lead to “big government” and “tyranny”.
    So in Ehrlich’s pea brain, forced abortions and forced religious beliefs are not tyranny.
    Both of these people, Ehrlich and Holdren, are complete idiots. What’s horrendous is that one of these idiots is now part of our federal government. Ever wonder how the “final solution” came about? It’s when people with scary ideas like this get mixed in with government and there are people who defend them.

      

  387. 387Jacinta Mary Annich on Jan 19, 2010 at 6:30 pm:

    YOu are sooo right and some things have already occured in the WORLD(not just in America), that is to say Mr Holdren has had a great effect on President Obama and not in a good way.
    1rst- i dont know if you’ve heard of CODEX ALIMENTARIOUS but its a ‘Law on food’ (The Regime might also be a logical central agency for regulating all international trade, perhaps including assistance from DCs to LDCs, and INCLUDING ALL FOOD ON THE INTERNATIONAL MARKET”) Did i also mention that the WORLD TRADING CENTER IS A WILLING PArticipant in this and is actually its lead. The world trade center is a codex alimentarious center and it only trades with countries that are codex alimentarious abiders. Thus, if the ‘law on food’ is introduced then all the countries have to abide by it willingly or leave the world trading center. The law is too long to explain but if you wanrt to know what it is thn go into youtube and type in “Codex alimentarious”. Many explanations say, and the codex alimentarious website says that this specific law conserning food will be in effect on the 31 of December 2009 however, in my opinion the delay is because of many people who know about this. They want to bring it out anonymously to make it as if the multitudes of people that are going to die in result of this law, died naturally. And if you are wondering who the “they” are in this article it is the New world order.There is a worldwide conspiracy being orchestrated by an extremely powerful and influential group of genetically-related individuals (at least at the highest echelons) which include many of the world’s wealthiest people, top political leaders, and corporate elite, as well as members of the so-called Black Nobility of Europe (dominated by the British Crown) whose goal is to create a One World (fascist) Government, stripped of nationalistic and regional boundaries, that is obedient to their agenda. Their intention is to effect complete and total control over every human being on the planet and to dramatically reduce the world’s population by 5.5 Billion people. Please go onto this website to find out more: http://www.educate-yourself.org/nwo/

    2nd: In the article when you mention the handing over of arms to an armed international police force.
    The united nations is an INTERNATIONAL POLICE FORCE and has made it compulsory for EVERY country to surrender any of its excess war materials (ie. guns, planes, etc…) to the united nations. Only a sufficient ammount of weaponary can be kept ie. enough to protect a country against others yet not enough to generate a war.

      

  388. 388GRAycon on Jan 25, 2010 at 11:42 am:

    Jesus Christ! Did I ACTUALLY just read an environmental Nazi’s justification for global mass murder?!? This is what is to come from “globalization” people; as individual nations surrender their sovereignty, something must fill the void or the “world” devolves into chaos. So this “international body” Holdren&Erlich&Erlich propose would have the power to determine the distribution of all natural resources, eh? Decided by whom? According to what criteria? Where does corruption get accounted for? How about political passions of the moment? What kind of penalties are to be levied against those who are judged to have “over-consumed”? What kind of repressive taxation will be enacted to pay for this “august” body? Who decides its membership? And most disturbing, there is NO mention of the morality of coercive population control; just one of the things that happens when you absolve government, science or any institution or discipline of the need to be morally accountable….God save me from ever having to see such a horrible, totalitarian future…..

      

  389. 389asp on Mar 2, 2010 at 12:02 pm:

    I agree with Holdren to some degree: we should begin retroactive abortions of psychos like John Holdren. If he thinks this is the solution, he should by all means put his money where his mouth is.

      

  390. 390Crystal-Dream on Mar 3, 2010 at 6:12 am:

    ….I am shocked to know that this person is in charge of the scientific department of the US. Such crazy man belong to the lunatic asylum, and not at such a position in the united states.
    I am going to read the full book myself tomorrow, as I have found out that my university has a copy of Ecoscience in its library. I guess, the rest of the page and essay that you wrote stands for itself and that many more people should know about it, and try to realize that more critical thinking is needed indeed…
    I am worried about how it can be that people like him can get into a position like that. How inhuman can people become to suggest such horrific things to others? How inhumane can people become to force others to give their lives up like this, especially unborn children and their mothers who love them deeply? This man is sick and insane!!!
    And this is proof that the abyss of humanity lies far deeper than anything I ever thought possible.

      

  391. 391Ale on Mar 20, 2010 at 11:26 am:

    Rob: “It has been posited by a statistician that the entire population of the Earth could be installed in the state of Texas, with a resulting density less than that of the island of Manhattan. So much for the “Population Bomb.”The most casual perusal of the globe exposes the fraudulence of these scare-mongering “arguments,” and a few months spent driving around this country (to say nothing of the remainder of the planet) is enough to once again make evident the truth of the statement “Environmentalists live in cities.”

    Forget space in terms of population density, and consider the amount of resources a person consumes over a lifetime and the space needed to obtain and harvest those, square feet of: crops, cattle farm, dairy farm, wood/paper farms, water collection and purification space, energy generation, ore extraction, air purification…

    While the suggestions are of course immoral as related to people’s choices about their own reproduction, little will it matter when there simple aren’t enough resources to go around. Abortion, Euthanasia, or Starvation makes little difference when the result is death.

    I particularly support stronger birth control now (creating a voluntary desire for people to have less children and a support system to prevent and terminate unwanted pregnancies), so that such extreme measures are not needed later.

      

  392. 392Chet Dickenson on Mar 28, 2010 at 9:24 pm:

    One thing you have to realize about why President Obama has this particular “scientist” as his csar. The UN Agenda 21. Look it up online. The UN has it posted. The scary part is that the US has signed up to enforce it. So! Here’s why it is worrisome: it calls for an 80% reduction in the world’s population. No joke. Read Agenda 21 (un.org/esa/sustdev/documents/agenda21/english/Agenda21.pdf) or (www.un.org/esa/dsd/agenda21). Then, go to the World Health Organization, and look up to see why these “wise” scientist state that nutrients are bad for us! Yup. The US health food folks are fighting it like crazy. It is already illegal in Europe to grow or buy organic foods. Ok, enough.

      

  393. 393William W. Wexler on Apr 13, 2010 at 9:04 am:

    Sheer lunacy and malfeasance

    It is your duty as someone operating a website in the information age to at least show some shred of intellectual honesty. Your post regarding what Holdren said he believed 32 years ago is devoid of anything except a flaccid attempt to shock.

    I would suggest that you ought to be ashamed of yourself, but people like you have no shame. I’m not exactly sure what motivates you, but providing reliable information with which US citizens can make decisions is certainly not part of it.

    In fact, it’s chuckleheads like you who make it possible for us to live in an age of instant communications… where almost any data known to us is available anywhere in the world on demand… and still have one of the most ignorant, misinformed pack of hooligans we’ve ever seen in this nation.

    If any blood gets spilled in riots on April 19 in DC, some of it will be on your hands.

      

  394. 394Kalifornia Kafir on Apr 19, 2010 at 2:50 pm:

    Zombies: Come celebrate Earth Day, April 22 at UC Berkeley with guest speaker JOHN HOLDREN.

    http://erg.berkeley.edu/info/2010Annual_lecture/2010_Annual_Lecture.shtml

      

  395. 395johnm on Apr 20, 2010 at 8:00 am:

    Long live Adolf Hitler. He was so far ahead of his time in history. He woulf of had a field day in America today.

      

  396. 396Matt on May 6, 2010 at 9:35 am:

    I sincerely appreciate all who took part in completing this report. I am an aspiring political science and possibly journalism major and senior at a Texas high school. I am writing a report on the political influences that have surrounded our President through his entire life. Most of these being Marxist/Communist and/or radical environmentalist/progressive. This paper is not mandated for any class or teacher but necessary to satisfy my quest for truth and knowledge. I agree that the media is absolutely disgraceful for the bias and disregard for truth over the recent years which is why i feel somewhat obligated to enter the fields of politics and reporting as i hope many others do. I will continue with my education, writing and research for truth with the assistance of this in-depth look into the dangerous and extreme views held by the most influential name to the United States science policy. I thank you once again for the great job you have done.

      

  397. 397JayDee on Aug 3, 2010 at 3:47 pm:

    I have had it with you nanny state idiots, John. I would think it only fair to begin the sterilizations with your family John , on the grounds of obvious defective reasoning and sociopathetic ideology. Surely it must run in your family John, bad genes and all that (we took your DNA at birth and sent it the pentagon). And while we have you miscreants at our well funded state clinic, lets give you all the latest laser fired ionic RNA/DNA sequences blasted right into you cells with out a pinch, to alleviated (permanently) your addiction potential and an anti stress synaptic neuro-toxin vaccine, BTW we have some leftover Gardisil for his wife & daughters, they will be questioned about the neighbors habits to save money, reduce their carbon foot print by saving a trip. Wash it all down with some sodium fluoride with a hint of lithium salts, some Modofanil, Adderall, and a splash of Ritalin and you’ll be ready to watch tv for a week in a row………….You get the point, its always the other guy, your kind never see that you are the blight on humanity……When we defeat you one world planetary criminals, and we will, you should all be sentenced to the same holocaust you would so callously visit on us and our families……Inalienable rights, say it slow John i n a l i e n a b l e r i g h t s, you have no right or authority to tamper with God’s creation, you have lost your humanity, you have no dignity, you have nothing John Holdren, NOTHING!!! You have lost what it is to be a human being, and for that John I have pity on you. I will pray for you (and you are my enemy) that you would repent and make peace with YOUR CREATOR, He will forgive you like he has me.

      

  398. 398Mac on Aug 5, 2010 at 4:28 pm:

  399. 399Not on Welfare on Aug 9, 2010 at 8:10 pm:

    I think that welfare breeds welfare and if you are on welfare for over a year, then you should be sterilized. Too many have kids for increases in their taxpayer funded welfare check with the births completely paid for by taxpayers. Sterilize them, stop the welfare cycle and cut government spending on career welfare recipients. In that aspect, forced sterilization should be initiated. If you contribute to society in a productive way, then maybe not… Working in public service for my entire life, it seems that people are becoming ignorant, more than in the past. They are stupid and their IQ’s are lower. Look at the grades our children earn in school compared to other countries. America is becoming stupid and it doesn’t help that TV and media “dumbs down” everything for everyone to the point they no longer think for themselves. Welfare rolls are outrageous and need to be controlled. If that includes sterilizing recipients to stop the continued generation after generation on welfare, so be it.

      

  400. 400cheyre on Sep 3, 2010 at 2:35 am:

    At last some truths !It’s high time humans who claim to regulate everything should regulate themselves and stop being the most dangerous species on earth

      

  401. 401DUCKIE on Sep 3, 2010 at 2:47 am:

    Catholicism certainly never encouraged people to have few children , no regulations but plenty of welfare!!!!I ‘m more in favour of Obama if he really means to implement population regulation. But there are so many backward people

      

  402. 402DUCKIE on Sep 3, 2010 at 2:51 am:

    The idiots are those who are proud of nine children !! Better breed nice animals !!!The Mother will be less likely to end up in a home for old people ,all alone.It’s easy to blame Hitler ,most scientists know that too many humans means the death of the earth.

      

  403. 403loveboy on Sep 3, 2010 at 3:09 am:

    Sarah Palin who feeds retarded children and is a hunter of poor animals ,probably to feed those same handicapped,idiotic offspring of hers ,is certainly a good example for retarded people to follow!!!

      

  404. 404Jeffery E. Harrison on Sep 17, 2010 at 5:40 am:

    Dear Sir,

    Thank you kindly for providing me with the perfect 10 min (SPE 403), presentation for my FALL- A, mid-term exam at Barry University, Miami Florida..

    In my one minute introduction (Time not counted), I will simply challenge my fellow ACE students to figure out who the author is, upon completion of quotes from Mr. Holdren.

    I will end my presentation at the 8:30 mark, and ask each student to choose from a short list of well know “progressive thinkers”, who the believe the auther to be. If they chose “none of the above” they must write the name down. ( predict that a good number of students will “write in” a name.

    Here are the choices:

    Karl Marx
    Nancy Pelosi
    John Holdren
    Fidel Castro
    Newt Gingrich
    Mao
    None of the above (write in name of person)

    I will post the results of my social experiment next Friday

      

  405. 405Jeffery E. Harrison on Sep 17, 2010 at 5:43 am:

    Dear Sir,

    Thank you kindly for providing me with the perfect 10 min (SPE 403), presentation for my FALL- A, mid-term exam at Barry University, Miami Florida..

    In my one minute introduction (Time not counted), I will simply challenge my fellow ACE students to figure out who the author is, upon completion of quotes from Mr. Holdren.

    I will end my presentation at the 8:30 mark, and ask each student to choose from a short list of well know “progressive thinkers”, who they believe the author to be. If they chooe “none of the above” they must write the name down.
    ( I predict that a good number of students will “write in” a name)

    Here are the choices:

    Karl Marx
    Nancy Pelosi
    John Holdren
    Fidel Castro
    Newt Gingrich
    Mao
    None of the above (write in name of person)

    I will post the results of my social experiment next Friday

      

  406. 406Jeffery E. Harrison on Sep 22, 2010 at 8:30 am:

    Dear CattusMagnu,

    Thank you for saving me the time and effort of having to pen my objections to the appointment of Mr. Holdren.

    Your assesment was spot on !

    Nov 2, 2010 will be remembered in History as the Second American Revolution.

    Jeff Harrison

      

  407. 407شات كتابي on Sep 27, 2010 at 11:19 am:

    Long live Adolf Hitler. He was so far ahead of his time in history. He woulf of had a field day in America today.

      

  408. 408Anti Oligarch on Sep 28, 2010 at 1:18 pm:

    Vicious Babushka: I have 9 children and 22 grandchildren. From my cold, dead uterus! Come and get me, “Planetary regime coppers”!BWAHAHAHA!!!!

    Yeah!!!
    Loads of love to you and yours Babushka.

    We’re not gona die you filthy suited murdering scumbags

      

  409. 409Mischa Popoff on Oct 22, 2010 at 12:49 pm:

    Dear fellow Zombielanders:

    It’s not wonder John Holdren wants free and forced abortions. The leaders of the George-Soros backed organic industry, of which Holdren is a member, know full-well that there’s no way the present population of America (and the world) could ever be sustained with organic farming.

    Did you know that all of the subsidies to the organic industry pass right through the hands of organic farmers and go straight into the coffers of left-leaning organic-political activists? Are you interested in learning more about this brand of watermelon (red-green) subterfuge that promises to fundamentally change the way you feed your family?

    Organic farms, processing facilities and brokers are NEVER tested to ensure they’re actually organic and that harmful pathogens are safely eliminated. Let me repeat that: there’s NO TESTING in the organic industry! It was set up according to the dictates of people like George Soros and Van Jones as a politicized honor system. And again I repeat, these people promise to fundamentally change the way you feed your family.

    I worked for five years as an organic inspector in Canada and the United States and have written extensively on this. When the lid is finally blown clean off the multi-billion-dollar, politicized organic industry, taxpayers everywhere will rejoice.

    I’ve written a book that blows the lid off all of this. Please go to my website for more information: http://www.isitorganic.ca. Perhaps you would be so kind as to link to it from your site in exchange for which I will link back to yours.

    All the best!
    Mischa the organic whistleblower

      

  410. 410nicn on Oct 26, 2010 at 3:52 pm:

    what a FUCKING lie
    you fucking coward

      

  411. 411John Brown on Nov 1, 2010 at 6:52 am:

    What an AP article, one that is as chilling as the piece in our local liberal newspaper, The Pantagraph, this morning, headlined, “Birth Control could be free under health law.” If you take the article as just another piece on healthcare or abortion, you’ll miss the point hidden within it; “A panel of experts advising the government meets in November (2010) to begin considering what kind of preventive care for women should be covered at no cost to the patient, as required under President Barack Obama’s overhaul.”

    I can’t help but think that John Holdren and his little imps have been busy concocting this evil brew over Halloween (just last night). Unfortunately, treating pregnancy as a disease or an illness seems draconian, but when considering the Ecoscience model, it seems to make perfect sense.

    We can’t allow this to happen. We have to remain vigil at all costs and look for threads of eugenics and ecoscience in what we read and hear….then fight it through public awareness of what the boys in DC are up to.

    Thanks for the article. I’m forwarding the link to dozens of lists that will reach thousands.

    As a note to the author of the article that routed me here: http://zombietime.com/john_holdren/ , you have a glaring typo right after you state, “I am not a scholar….” where Holdren’s name is misspelled.

      

  412. 412Lynette Ketchem on Nov 7, 2010 at 4:44 pm:

    Perfect document, well written I have to admit.

      

  413. 413Lasher on Nov 12, 2010 at 9:17 am:

    This is a perfect solution to rid the country, and hopefully the world, of the social scum that has been allowed to multiply for centuries. With this plan implemented, it wouldn’t take long to rid us of all the Jews, blacks, Latinos, and the other mud-people who have made life on Earth such a trial for the White race, lo, these many years.

    The problem is, the ones who are now in charge of our lives are the very ones who need to be eliminated – the Jews and their henchmen. There is no doubt that the Jews will first begin to get rid of the White intelligensia in order to eliminate their foremost threat to global power, and then anyone whom they deem to be a stumbling block on their road to complete domination of all the rest of the people left alive.

      

  414. 414captaingrumpy on Nov 17, 2010 at 4:24 pm:

    There are 28 Czars,right.
    Well there are more than 29 bullets in a magazine. right.

      

  415. 415Just Me on Nov 29, 2010 at 7:34 pm:

    I just wanted to step in and comment real quick.

    We DO have a problem with teen births and unwed mothers. I am against forced abortions, the implantation of foreign objects into the body against our will, and the addition of any chemical into our food or water. However, we DO need to do something about all the new UN-planned births we are dealing with today.

    My suggestion is to bring back the Chasity belt with the parents in control of the key/password and only unlock it for medical reasons or upon marriage. LOL

      

  416. 416William W. Wexler on Nov 29, 2010 at 8:18 pm:

    I’ve never seen more ignorance and willingness to adopt innuendo and urban legends as “facts” anywhere in the world. You Beck people need to read Idiot America, which explains and describes you to a T.

    Here we are living in the information age and you choose to believe misinformation over science, disinformation over truth, and superstition over rationality.

    Wow. It must suck to be you. Beck threw the 9.12 project under the bus and went for the 8-28 mass extinction rally instead. Now he’s got the Mormons and the Xtians at each others’ throats, his ratings are dropping, and he’s lost any appeal he ever had to Libertarians in exchange for a few people who are hoping and praying for the apocalypse.

    You’re laughable in a sick sort of way.

    -Wexler

      

  417. 417I don't dare tell... on Mar 25, 2011 at 10:31 am:

    The author gives no solution to solving the population problem and the problems of starvation that are concurrent. Everyone, it seems, wants to launch a diatribe about our morality and by whose authority can mass sterilization be forced upon an unsuspecting populace. I write on March 25, 2011. We are embroiled in terrible wars in the middle east. The world is struggling to feed its poor. I have friends who are dying of hunger in Manila, Philippines and as I write I have no more money to send to save them!

    This is the reality. This is the face of poverty. This is the horror of over population. Insufficient minerals, water, housing, sewage and garbage disposal, clothing, medicine and food. When someone I love is dying of hunger and telling me about it over the Yahoo Chat line it hits home like cast iron frying pan to the face. It’s no longer an academic question. No one has willingly confronted DOING something until now.

    Will the author return to offer a solution to the world growing a population to a “die off” point, ? , or shall we simply be like fish trapped in a small pond? What is the best solution?

    While you chow down on your quarter pound of beef a day and much more how many billions of cattle and chicken must we slaughter daily to meet similar demands world wide and how can we possibly sustain and supply that demand?

    I think mass sterilization of the impoverished is a form of kindness, a “tough love” if you will. It’s a sad situation but I see no early man-created alternative. Only God can save us and most readers think God is a myth and Darwin’s Fantasy is the truth.

    In light of such a modern twisted theology, why should mass sterilization be considered immoral?

      

  418. 418lina on Apr 13, 2011 at 11:55 am:

    take care of yourself , they might be already after you, when i looked this up, i thought i wasn’t going to find it because of it’s content. we need to do something to alert people before they censure this

      

  419. 419meee on Jun 11, 2011 at 7:43 pm:

    I think you misunderstand the textbook.

    What Holdren is writing about is the various scenarios where overpopulation leads to governmental regulation of the size of the population.

    Not that Holdren wants forced abortions, sterlization, and implementing these globally, but rather it possible to foresee these horrible things may occur unless we get the population under control.

      

  420. 420Mike on Jun 12, 2011 at 11:34 am:

    This motherfucker has to be shot in the balls.

      

  421. 421ComancheShaman on Jun 12, 2011 at 9:21 pm:

    Population in the U.S. could be reduced by 1.4mil just by deportation of the illegals here, how about enforcing the law for a change instead of making new ones.
    ??

      

  422. 422Gbeck on Jun 30, 2011 at 1:08 pm:

    I gather that most of you are young and fail to understand that the book is about the “What if”s. The ideas are not that f an administraion, but that of an individual who’s hypothetical thought of the future polutation.

      

  423. 423Afraid to post the truth. on Aug 2, 2011 at 5:47 am:

    Anyone who is thinks this is horrible, should go help a poverty family, or meet the drug addict with 15 kids all on welfare. If you can’t raise the first two – - you should be done. My brother adopted the 4th and 5th son, out of this kind of home and they have been nothing but trouble.

    I would be all for welfare people getting forced sterilization after having two children taken away from them for being unfit homes. And yes number 4 and 5 have been sterilized (before any offspring). They know they are not capable of being parents.

      

  424. 424anti-new-world "oder" on Aug 14, 2011 at 3:00 pm:

    the link to Ecoscience is no longer working – i would really love to read it – these globalist malgenix genocidal maniacs need to be stopped in their trax any and every way possible

      

  425. 425REBECCA OLESEN on Sep 15, 2011 at 4:49 am:

    So, like we’d be like China?

    Hey good, they can start with mexico,south america, haiti, and every black african country. Then see what they can do about the muslims, I mean they have increased their demographics in many muslim countries by 1,000% in 30 years.
    How the hell do you slow population when muslims will squeeze as many babies as they can out of each wife, like 20 kids per wife. osama bin laden has over 100 children!!
    Watch that documentary THOSE WHO WALK ON ALL FOURS – Turkish family, first cousin marriage & parents were first cousins. Woman had her first 7 children in 5 years !! 5 out of 7 were retarded, missing sections of the brain that control the ability to walk so they walk on hands and feet. She eventually had 20 children. So now 20 extra people,inbred, genetic mutants like the majority of Saudi and Pakistan, Gaza, Iraq. They hide that stuff from the outside world, and now try to claim all birth defects are from depleted uranium using pictures of thalamide babies from 1962 and Harlequin Ichtyosis, not caused by radiation.

    Ah fuck it, can we just crop dust pakistan with fucking cyanide? LMAO

      

  426. 426James on Oct 2, 2011 at 8:19 am:

    Nice to have all the damning quotes and evidence right here on a single page. I will refer to it often.

      

  427. 427james jackson on Oct 3, 2011 at 4:16 am:

    The reason this socialist/fascist who wants forced birth control and forced abortion is simple!!!The insanity of world domination by his corporate-religiouse-political tyrant and oppressors family line!!!Case and point !Why would long time citizens be told there are to many of us? Then millions of uneducated illegals&legals be brought in to replace the long term citizens in jobs towns and life!!!It is called Genocide for a profit!!! A combination genocide program designed by Religiouse,political,and corporate tyrants.This is to kill you and me then replace us with uneducated poor immigrants to get there evil scheme of world domination.To win this war against a religion run state family line is easy!!!!Start a new political party of free long time poor americans-If the middle class thinks they are going to stop the genocide with the poor look at housing prices and think about those illlegals educated and the unemployment rates to take your jobs at lower wages!!!Look at the dynamics of towns and cities-first whites destroyed and killed off-second blacks destroyed and killed off-then mexicans destroyed and killed off-next asians.Then what? The Free parties political agenda should be no immigration-everyone votes no matter what felony-No spying on citizens-No dictators in our free socity-No 900 billion drug wars-legalize moderate pot use through pharmacuticals raised to be safe and only a dose every 2 weeks.then outlaw all other harmful substances including pharmacuticals which are legal and killing and disabling far more than illegal drugs for the government run biological exsperiments-Create a real religion-Stand up for yourselves or be slaughterd by control freaks.They say no ten commandments on government property!!!Then the same ones want gay marriage outlawed.Put them to task ask that the genocide of long time citizens be stopped immediately!!!Lower the cost of living by free electric by using a water pump to power a waterwheel with cups to turn a giant generator-Dip wood in wax so houses last hundereds of years to stop deforestation and everyone world wide will have homes,food from yearround green houses,free heating and cooling.also more jobs from true no cost elecricity.And educate everyone to have only 2-3 childeren and promote herbal research so all will have medicine.Then anyone having more than 2-3 childeren will be sent to the old regime of oppressors this includes the oppressors and tyrants to keep eveything fair all will be educated to harvard and yale standards because they go to school right out of high school so should you.If we arent able to reach the higher level at least we will be free and safe and taken care of without genocide.The real free peoples party.

      

  428. 428keaton mcmahon on Nov 9, 2011 at 6:03 pm:

    This is to all the people that think that forcing abortions is wrong ( I agree with you) and all of the people that think that forcing infertility on people is wrong. (I kind of agree with you)
    If u can’t see what is going to happen to this population look at growth curves of ANYTHING. There is ALWAYS some point were the population has to stop “finite resources” or there is a sharp drop due to disease and predators balancing the growth. Fortunately and unfortunately there are no predators for humans. One way or the other the population will stop growing; the question is where do we want to stop the growth? If we let are population get to or very near the carrying capacity of earth there will be very large part of the population that is starving and thirsty. (hummm kind of sounds like right now) I know that it sounds bad if we start adding chemicals to water and food supplies to lower the population, but isn’t it better then children being born into a world where they will be struggling to just stay alive? (That doesn’t sound like a happy life to me)
    if you asked me for a suggestion, I would suggest that the government should step in and offer pharmaceutical companies and % reduction on their taxes if they were willing to add infertility drugs to their products. Not enough to make sure that your infertile just enough to lower the chances of reproduction. So people that get sick more often will take more drugs and eventually become bread out of the population. Strengthening the overall population as a whole and continue to help reduce disease in the future. (also in case someone feels this is a good idea, think ahead if you start adding these infertility drugs to peoples diets because they will end up in the sewer systems and flow into livestock’s water and food supplies, so make sure they are quickly biodegradable)

      

  429. 429Kam Hollowell on Nov 15, 2011 at 2:19 am:

    Thanks , I’ve recently been searching for information approximately this topic for a while and yours is the best I have found out till now. But, what concerning the conclusion? Are you positive concerning the supply?

      

  430. 430KG on Nov 16, 2011 at 9:15 am:

    It’s fascinating to me that people who believe in such practices always accept themselves and their offspring as being acceptable to society. I wonder what their tone would be if say a genetic glitch, so to speak, was found in their family DNA? It would seem to follow that people of mixed race might very well be sterilized which would eliminate Tiger Woods and who knows how many other sports achievers from society. I do however think there is a role for abortion especially in cases where there’s evidence of mental retardation and some other birth defects. I don’t see the point of bringing someone into the world who has absolutely no chance to compete with the rest of society for a rewarding life. I know there are many good arguments to the contrary but this is my view of it. Yesterday I saw one of those high altitude jets with the abnormally thick contrail. For all I know there could be some sort of sterilization drug mixed in with all the toxic metals those jets are purported to be spraying. And to think, all the average man wants is to have a happy life for as long as it lasts.

      

  431. 431Interested Observer on Nov 18, 2011 at 11:41 am:

    Mark Twain said, “A lie can go around the world three times before the truth can even get its shoes on.”

    John Holdren has publicly said, more than once, that he does not now, nor has he ever believed in the things he has been accused of. He co-authored a text book that looked at, scrutinized and subsequently dismissed those things he’s accused of promoting.

    The book was written in the seventies. There were several other things that were being said during that time. For example:

    “Success in the population field, under United Nations leadership, may, in turn, determine whether we can resolve successfully the other great questions of peace, prosperity, and individual rights that face the world.”

    This individual was saying that he thought it was a good idea to give to the United Nations authority and responsibility for global population control. You know that person. It was none other than George H. W. Bush. Why no great hue and cry from the author of this blog when Bush1 was campaigning for POTUS?

    Or this one:

    “In 1975, a then-classified National Security Council report outlined the dangers that rapid population growth posed to global stability. The report… under the heading “An Alternative View,” broached the case for coercion. A “growing number of experts,” it said, were predicting widespread food shortages and other “demographic catastrophes… The conclusion of this view, it said, “is that mandatory programs may be needed and that we should be considering these possibilities now.”

    When these ideas are being discussed in the White House why is anyone surprised that they are also discussed in a text book. What is most telling about the apparent hypocrisy of this blogs author is that these topics were being discussed and policies and plans for implementing those procedures were being formulated by the Nixon/Ford Administration. It’s also significant to note that the Chief of Staff for Nixon/Ford was one Dick Cheney.

    Again, if you’re so concerned about the possibility of the Gov’t. establishing involuntary sterilization and abortion programs, why don’t you jump into Dick Cheney’s stuff. He didn’t just talk about it, he was part of the Administration that actually had plans and was prepared to do it! And I have yet to hear Cheney say that he doesn’t still think it might be a good idea.

      

  432. 432Kory on Nov 18, 2011 at 11:55 am:

    Not only do I agree with his ideas, I don’t believe he takes it far enough, and the fact that there are a large number of you horrified by this mans rational propositions on how we can help ensure the overall long-term survival of earths inhabitants, specifically the human species, utterly disgusts me. The reason things like putting sterilizing agents in water supplies are considered is because the unbelievable amount of selfish assholes who would rather have eventually social and economical collapse than allow the government to prevent rampant pregnancies, specifically from main contributors of these multitudes of “unwanted children”, by which I mean “criminals”, “punks”, “bums” (call them what you will, the point is that you know who I mean, the essential scum of the earth). Morality and ethics are not a factor when discussing the overall prosperity of the human race, and I find it obscene that many of you, (most of which wouldn’t be part of the targeted group), are so enraged about this mans good ideas. As for those of you who will argue a double standard, with accusations like “What if your child, relative, acquaintance, etcetera, would fall into this category whether it be “hanging with the wrong crowd” or what have you”; I agree with you 100%, there should certainly be no exceptions from them, however unfortunate it is for said people.

    In addition to the forced sterilization and abortions, I think the overpopulation solution should go as far as increase in capitol punishment, especially for those already in prison serving one or more multiple life sentences. If a person is so counterproductive to society that reform is either not plausible or inefficient than they certainly have no business living, let alone reproducing. As I’ve stated previously, a double standard in terms of exclusions is still unacceptable, if someone I care about meets criteria for such drastic consequences the so be it, for the fact is we as a whole need to do what is best for the whole, which will sometimes mean making sacrifices.

    I’d enjoy to read responses from those of you who have reflected rationally upon what I’ve stated here, so if you have logically sound points and/or counter points to my post you can contact me at shadykid4ksp@aol.com

      

  433. 433wellingtton on Nov 18, 2011 at 5:51 pm:

    I’m worried, because until now I realize that this topic has been brought to public knowledge, it remains a sphere restricted discussions that do not reach the general public and does not have the endorsement of world authorities. The government, if aware, did nothing to change the picture, nor mitigate the effects. The food industry and pharmaceutical walking strides to contribute to poverty, the spread of chronic diseases and thus ensure a profit. I think the initiative is commendable, however, wonder if we will have the opportunity to reverse the effects and require repair and convict those responsible for the wrongs against humanity. Sorry my English, I still have to practice a little more.

      

  434. 434J. Hartshorn on Dec 3, 2011 at 2:15 am:

    After many miles, I’m able to access this again…let me see if I can finally post my response from late July of 2009:

    (reference to discussion started @ comment #262 J. Hartshorn)

    Zombie: (can I call you that? it seems so silly. Then again, this whole thing is getting silly…)

    Let’s refocus on Holdren and the text, and the argument (referred to as ‘implicatory’; funny word, I know) you seem to be making (although you say you are just stating facts), and leave the remainder out for now.

    Your assertion that you didn’t take the passages out of context (like cropping a photo) assumes that the ‘Full Context’ of each quote is the paragraph, or perhaps as much as the page, that the quote is taken from. It is more true that the ‘context’ of a chapter sub-section is that entire sub-section; but even that sub-section must be taken in the context of the chapter, and that chapter in the context of the book, which is approximately 1000 pages, if I’m not mistaken. Etc, etc.

    You could apply this same logic to the photograph; there is always a larger context. And while you have to limit your inquiry at some point, (I don’t expect you to read the book cover to cover; and I’m sure most of your readers / those posting here won’t take the time), it’s important to limit it in ways that give a complete picture.

    Some things I would like to see you post and comment on would be the introduction and conclusions to the chapter, which are the ‘formal’ context of the chapter / subsection; and also, the introduction (and/or first chapter) and conclusion (or last chapter) of the book, as this is the ‘context’ of the entire argument.

    That said, for the record, I have your pieces of the text, the pieces Fox linked to, Holdren’s AAAS piece (presidential address; from sciencemag.org); I do not have the complete book until later this week [author's note: I was able to look at it eventually, briefly]. But I do thank you for providing me what you have. It gives an adequate amount of material to work with.

    So let’s start, then, with your text, and a close reading both of it and of the book passages. I will then move on to a broader critique of your (and perhaps your readers’) understanding of scientific / academic writing.

    I’ve already critiqued your first two sentences and found 4(5) errors, (my response #262) which you still haven’t clarified, defended, or edited. Please do so, lest you be accused of the things you are accusing Holdren of. At a minimum, you should hold yourself to the same standards you hold others to; that’s the golden rule (and Kant’s categorial imperative), more or less. Readers are advised to open zombie’s original post in a separate window for parallel viewing.

    Par. 3: sentence fragments, and not attributed to anyone, so irrelevant. should be removed, or completed.
    Par. 4: “In control of Science Policy”: false statemetn. Holdren is an advisor, he doesn’t control policy, he merely influences it.
    Par. 5: “These ideas…recommendations”: this is called equivocation, I believe; you’re leading us to believe the the ideas were recommendations. But in fact, an ‘idea’, and a ‘recommendation’ are quite different. I hope to unpack this point further below. “firmly in control” has already been shown as false (par.4).

    Par. 6 (bullet points): “women could be forced” – equivocation again; there are two meanings to ‘could’: one is a hypothetical; under some circumstances we could imagine in the world, women could be forced to abort their pregnancies. In fact, this is true: it happens occasionally in China. The other meaning is more slippery; by following directly from your sentence “in control of science policy”, the ‘could’ is assumed to mean ‘could be forced, under policies Holdren will influence, to abort their pregnancies’. Of course, there is no evidence of this, and it is completely illogical, ignoring the political system we have in place. So, by placing ‘could’ as you have, you have deliberately confused the issue; a sort of ‘bait and switch’ that many probably missed.

    Same applies for the second bullet point.

    Third bullet point says ‘should’; it’s not footnoted where this is in the book, so I can’t address it yet. Fourth point “can be required by law…in other words…compelled” – No footnote, so the critique is only of your logic: both ‘requiring responsible behavior’ and ‘compelling’ are not the same as forcing someone to do something. Your use of the term ‘compelled’ implies the latter, and is false in its implication. One can be compelled through economic means, social means, etc.; this is not the same as a euphemistic use of the term ‘compelled’, meaning, men in black trench coats (or white lab coats) taking you away.

    Par. 7&8: “impossible…” as I have shown, and will show, it is some combination of exaggeration and hoax; _he_ didn’t say those things, _you_ did, paraphrasing _them_, I might remind you. Finally, however, you do admit he was a co-author, correcting the error in Par. 2. Why you didn’t go back and correct it there, I can only imagine. It’s not like online media can’t be edited after publication. Or, you could be sophisticated and publish an ‘errata’ note. I’d prefer the former. “conclusive evidence”: the reader can decide if the evidence is conclusive or not. Show, don’t tell. And anyway, didn’t you tell us (comment #263) “All I am doing is supplying some “data points,” and allowing other people to come to their own conclusions”? So, why are you telling us what the conclusion is? You can’t have it both ways.

    I think you, and your readers, can see where I’m going with this. If they apply the same rigor to a close reading of your text on their own, they will find the same basic logical fallacies and factual errors throughout your piece on their own, so I won’t continue down that path.

    _________________________

    I’d rather shift gears and refocus on the text itself, and how we might interpret it, though I will be referring to your mis-interpretations as well.

    The text actually states “compulsory abortion, could be sustained” (emphasis added); but you re-interpret it as ‘would’. Then you say he’s hiding behind the passive voice, and it’s really he who is concluding this. “What Holdren’s really saying here” proves that you are interpreting facts, and interpreting them wildly. I don’t have page 837 in its entirety, but they aren’t talking about ‘involuntary fertility control’ until the subsection beginning on p. 786; and in that section, forced abortions are not mentioned at all. So what evidence do you have as to what they are ‘really’ saying?

    If we do look at what they say, here’s what we find:

    (786) “…Severely repressive economic measures might prove to be both ineffective and unnecessary as a vehicle for population control, as well as socially undesirable. At the very least, they should be considered only if milder measures fail completely”.

    In other words, using tough economic incentives (not actually forcing anything, but applying economic pressure) should be considered only if (that is, they are not only not recommending that they be enacted, but are recommending they not even be considered, unless) milder measures fail completely: i.e., after exhausting all lesser means.

    This paragraph concludes the previous sub-section, and is the lead in to the following one, “Involuntary Fertility Control”. This tells the critical reader, even with only one page of text, that the argument is organized logically in the form of an ‘escalating’ argument; that is, approaches to addressing an issue are being presented in order from easiest / most acceptable, to most difficult / least acceptable.

    The least acceptable of these, is “Involuntary Fertility Control”. We note, however, that it does not say ‘involuntary abortions’. That would be involuntary birth control, which is different. Fertility control (controlling conception) is birth control; but birth control is not necessarily fertility control (except in a much broader demographic sense). Fertility precedes conception; birth proceeds from conception. The temporal distance (and the fact that conception is in the middle; for Christians being the moment when the soul enters the foetus (or more precisely, fertilized egg)) is incredibly important, so we shouldn’t conflate the two.

    The aforementioned sub-section, second sentence, states ‘Several coercive proposals deserve discussion, mainly because some countries may ultimately have to resort to them unless current trends in birth rates are rapidly reversed by other means”. This lays out a few things:
    1. We are discussing these things, not recommending them, advocating, condoning, or any other verb.
    2. The main reason we are discussing them is that they may come up in the future, so we should think about them now, rather than waiting and being surprised by a supposedly ‘new’ idea that might be very bad, or simply ineffective, but that in a moment of crisis might be rushed into foolishly.
    3. They may be resorted to, by some countries (totalitarian ones, not democracies such as ours) if other options fail. This qualifies the options in the context of a possible future, and under certain political regimes. In fact, this is a true statement, bore out by China’s decision two years after the writing of this book, to enact a ‘one-child policy’; and those who disagree with the Chinese approach will surely be interested in the other options (most of which you have edited out).

    I will pass over the center of the sub-section for now, and move to the concluding paragraph, wherein we can expect to find a summary statement that puts the whole in context (see my comments in my par. 2 & 4, above). Here it is:

    “Compulsory control of family size is an unpalatable idea, but the alternatives may be much more horrifying. As those alternatives become clearer to an increasing number of people in the 1980’s, they may begin demanding [emphasis in original] such control. A far better choice, in our view, is to expand the use of milder methods of influencing family size preferences, while redoubling efforts to ensure that the means of birth control, including abortion and sterilization, are accessible to every human being on earth within the shortest possible time. If effective action is taken promptly against population growth, perhaps the need for the more extreme involuntary or repressive measures can be averted in most countries” (788-789, end of subsection).

    Now, what can we infer about their opinions from this?

    1. They believe there may in fact be something worse than compulsory control of family size. For instance, certain forms of compulsion may be less horrifying than mass starvation or civil/sectarian conflict based on resource depletion (see Darfur, or water deficit issues throughout the world).
    2. They believe that as those terrible things become clearer (not actually happening, but perceived to be coming in the near future), people (not the authors, but others) may begin demanding the things described above.
    3. The authors don’t think that those things, namely compulsory control of family size, are good ideas, even before including compulsory abortions, perhaps the most extreme version of the larger category.
    4. The authors do think that we should expand non-coercive (‘milder’) methods of influencing family size preferences.
    5. The authors do think that we should ensure access to birth control, so that people can make their own decisions now; i.e., exercise their liberty / free will, the opposite of being coerced.
    6. If milder measures are carried out quickly and sufficiently, the more extreme measures will not be necessary.

    This is quite different from advocating for extreme totalitarian measures to control the population (your phrase), or proposing to force women to have abortions (your phrase again).

    And this section which you are using to create a controversy is only two pages of a 1000 page book? Talk about a tempest in a teapot…

    __________________

    Let me conclude for now with a broader point about scientific / academic writing that I hope will not be lost on you or other readers.

    Writing a textbook is not the same as writing an editorial. The goal is to present an argument, but also present evidence for the argument, other opinions, and examples. The transmission of information from the book to the reader is not the end of the process, but the beginning. It is meant to be followed by discussion and debate in the classroom, where the opinions of the authors, others which the authors present, the professor (I am assuming at least college level for this weighty tome), and all of the diverse students. If a textbook were only to state the author’s recommendations, and not mention any proposals by others which the authors may disagree with, it would be insufficient basis for discussion.

    And discussion is clearly what the authors are after. They want the issue to be talked about, not brushed aside, because they believe that if we ignore it, it will get worse. We shouldn’t put our heads in the sand, but should critically analyze all the options, and determine which are possible and which are not (technically), and which are acceptable, and which are not, (on moral and political grounds, which they mention throughout), lest we be blindsided by a tragedy which we should have seen coming.

    In order to have a discussion, at times you have to remove your own opinions from some portions; you have to focus on conveying a single idea or set of facts for a moment, and leave the reader with the responsibility of connecting that idea or those facts to the broader argument and facts laid out elsewhere in your writing, and beyond that single text. It would be impossible, and is of course unnecessary, to include your argument against something within every paragraph, or sentence. You must hope that your reader has the maturity to work through the text in full, and on their own connect the disparate pieces, and interpret them in light of their own knowledge and understanding.

    This, however, is precisely what you have not done. Rather, we have been here presented with bits and pieces, and those also have been interpreted and re-presented according to your biases and intentions (namely, to discredit Obama, and “drag down” his administration, in your words, #263.) This is not the same as honestly seeking knowledge and understanding, and engaging in a charitable debate.

    Because of your clear biases, and your editorializing in spite of your claim of ‘just supplying the facts’, it should be clear by now that your characterization of Holdren is so far beyond reality that it calls into question not Holdren, but your own legitimacy. Your only defense is the claim that a successful blog post is so because ‘there’s something to the claims being made’ (your words) – and we can judge it is successful because it ‘succeeds in making a controversy’, that is, inventing something that wasn’t there before.

    I will grant you one thing; it wasn’t you that made it into the controversy it has become, (a rather small one, in the end), it was you and others like you, and those who were fooled by you presentations of opinion as facts. Thankfully, our Senators were not among that group, and Holdren is now in a position to participate in reclaiming our country’s science and technology policy from the terrible legacy of ‘lets wait until we are absolutely sure before doing anything or even talking about it’ era. Including doing something about childhood and maternal mortality, which his “Science and Technology for Sustainable Well-Being” address clearly lays out as 40 times more important, as measured by years of life lost, than global warming. Hardly the lunatic baby killer – mother sterilizer – wacko that you and so many others have tried to frame him as.

    Well then. They say the wolf makes the deer stronger; but eventually, the wolf gets his dinner. I’m eating you alive (though you’re a zombie, so already dead?), and it tastes so good…

    I will be back later to finish you off. A quarry as flaccid as you is sufficient for more than one feasting. For now, I’m going to sleep with a full belly.

    J. Hartshorn / California 2009_07_27
    [now in China, 2011_12_02]

      

  435. 435John Hart on Dec 16, 2011 at 5:10 pm:

    Holdren’s 1977 solutions to our problems certainly were draconian, but like most people who were young radicals in that period, he has learned a lot since then. Why did someone put so much effort into this website instead of just saying “you might want to see what Holder wrote in the 70′s”? The quotes, while accurate, are taken out of context in order to present him in the worse possible light and have next to nothing to do with Holdren’s current position as science adviser to the president. Listening to fear-mongers is not a good way to be an informed citizen of a democracy. Try reading something instead about what’s happening in Holdren’s current job if you want an objective view.

      

  436. 436john johnson on Dec 24, 2011 at 5:10 pm:

    Never give up your guns. We will have to fight these people for our lives and rights.They don’t intend to stop.They will boil us a little at a time til we are a good communist people. The older generation doesn’t recognize communism anymore and the younger has been dumb’ed down to think this class warfare is right.All prosperity comes from rich people and the governments of the world have slaughtered more people than any private citizens ever could.Governments are the problems,armed citizens have always been the answer

      

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  438. 438victoria on Mar 2, 2012 at 12:07 pm:

    What concerns me is this administration is filling opening with radical people who have radical opinions. When are the American people going to wake up and stop this government that trying to force Marxism down our throats. President Obama and his administration is getting braver and braver because we are not yelling GET HIM AND HIS PEOPLE OUT OF OFFICE!!

      

  439. 439MIllard on Mar 4, 2012 at 11:09 am:

    Hey morons, what “over-population”? You libtards have killed 50,000 babies a year in name of your god you call political correctness”. Maybe we need to stop the libtards from reproducing. Oh, wait, they are doing that themselves….its called abortion.

      

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  441. 441Alex on Mar 13, 2012 at 4:54 pm:

    I am a Christian missionary and I don’t often say this but…
    those people need to be taken out. They are extremely dangerous.

    If we do not stop this madness rivers of blood will be spilled. Oh wait…that is the plan.

    You had better be square in your business and don’t screw people. Hug your children and be good to your wife. You will answer to God someday and if these people have their way it will be sooner rather than later.

      

  442. 442Jim on Mar 22, 2012 at 5:07 pm:

    Someone sent me the story about Holden and he seems a bit extreme, but I wonder how many you would be willing to up your taxes to pay for all those babies, born to mothers who can’t pay their own bills. Hmmmm? Hands up, please. Oh, not many. No surprise here. But I will bet you are the same people who launch into a diatribe about lazy welfare mothers. The way to stop the cycle is to reward women and men, for not making babies! My particular solution. Pay people not to re-produce. Pay them a handsome sum of money to have their tubes tied. Make it voluntary so no one can claim coersion.

      

  443. 443Ian MacLeod on Apr 4, 2012 at 11:23 pm:

    what I’ve read here fits in like a handful of jigsaw puzzle pieces with everything I’ve read on the “elite’s” plans for world domination. Had I read this years ago in isolation I wouldn’t have believed it. Surely no one with a decent education in America who holds a responsible position and is respected in academic circles could possibly hold such opinions, such ideas and believe them to be true, nevermind beneficial. I have, in the past decade and a half, been horrified over and over again as I found more pieces of the puzzle that explained the insane doings on this planet. Jim Holdren is a part of that insanity, clearly. I think America is in deep, deep trouble, and I can only hope that someone sees a way to repair this damage that I’ve not been able to find. I love what America is supposed to be, I loathes what it has been, and I have no words strong enough for the direction it is taking.

    Thank you for presenting this!

    Ian

      

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  447. 447John q San Diego on Jun 3, 2012 at 7:55 pm:

    Why is the more I read things like this the less surprised I am? Sometimes I wish the government would just come out and say “Hey World! Stop making so many goddamn babies or we are going to stop you!” And if the key to reduced population is better education, why are we defunding the public schools? I remember as a Freshman my bio teacher had a couple come in to speak about abortion. The wife, who was 50+, remained visibly disturbed that she ended her pregnancy unnaturally. On topic, I was looking at pictures of a “partial birth” abortion the other day and I was disgusted. The idea of cutting up a fetus and pulling it out of a woman does not seem like a wonderful gift from science and I hope they are not a common procedure.

    The media masses seem to have no problem shoving sex, drugs and debauchery down our throat but cry afoul when people get drunk (or not) and have babies. People will always have sex, duh. So if we want to “control population” it seems we have the know how to do it without infringing on individual freedoms.

      

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    From 2009:
    http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/obamas_science_czar_does_not_support_coercive_population_control_spokesman_says/

    This zombie story is exactly that- a dead story that passed away years ago being brought back to life to try to frighten people.

      

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    The world as it is today disregards, in many aspects, what may be the struggles of world in the future. John Holdren and his co-author are innovative minds who take into consideration what is unethical in this time period not because they are unethical human beings, but because they are practical and they see a need to fear what will become of the planet if there comes a time when it is burdened by overpopulation. Stop being so fucking ignorant!

    THEY DID NOT WRITE THIS PAPER TO PROMOTE MASS ABORTIONS AND FORCED STERILIZATION. They suppose that some time in the future these are issues we may encounter, and they are thinking ahead at possible ways to alleviate the struggles of that time period. China has already entered this period in their society and it is not inhumane to suspect that we may have to deal with similar dangers of over-population.

    BE RESPONSIBLE WHEN HAVING CHILDREN AND WE CAN AVOID TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT TO DO WITH ALL OF THE GODDAMN BABIES WHEN THE WORLD IS TOO FULL OF THEM TO FEED EVERYONE. CASE CLOSED.

      

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  465. 465EastGhostCom on Aug 17, 2012 at 11:15 am:

    Hilarious how right around the time, several years ago, that Maryland’s governor EHRLICH (who hides his family history, see wikipedia) was in control, the Washington Post reported on the finding of *male* frogs growing eggs all along the Potomac River (Maryland “owns” the water rights to the Potomac, which also supplies drinking water for DC). And most Americans outside of the big east-coast cities simply will not believe the flaming fem kind of guys that are appearing all over the place – seriously, live versions of the androgynous “Pat” (man? woman? can’t tell) that Saturday Night Live parodied for years. See also Dr. Len Horowitz MUSICAL CULT CONTROL. See also Dave McGowan WAGGING THE MOON DOGGIE and INSIDE THE LC. See also vigilant citizen () com website. See also CARNICOM () COM and “What in the world are they spraying” by G. Edward Griffin. See also John Taylor Gatto and Charlotte Iserbyte on youtube. See also TRUTH BEHIND HIP HOP (and similars) on youtube. See also SPROL () com. This shit is for real, all of it.

      

  466. 466EastGhostCom on Aug 17, 2012 at 11:21 am:

    Fact: every human on Earth can fit inside state of Texas and have 1,00 sq. ft. per human. The globalist/satanic idea of “overpopulation” is 100% total bullshit. All the poisons and pollution are not coming from the little people, who very rarely destroy their own property, but instead from the multinational corporations and other “untouchable” organizations, run by sociopaths or worse, who do anything for money. The “green” agenda is driving the same goal: New World Order, One World — and guess who will be in control? THEM Is that honestly what any free, thinking person would ever want?? Not a chance. Y’all better WTFU and start making smart choices, doing something, because this shit is pretty far along.

      

  467. 467ted on Sep 18, 2012 at 1:02 pm:

    Vitter then asked, “You think determining optimal population is a proper role of government?” To which Holdren replied, “No, Senator, I do not.”

    The question that does no appear to have been asked is;

    “Mr Holdren who do you think the proper role of determining optimum population should or is given to?”

    be well all

      

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  470. 470Montman68 on Sep 30, 2012 at 9:49 pm:

    Why have so many Americans become so stupid and allow people like Barack Hussein Obama and John Holdren into our White House? It befuddles me.

      

  471. 471Seen on Oct 14, 2012 at 7:45 pm:

    3. He was just the co-author — he probably didn’t write these particular passages, nor did he agree with them.
    First of all: If you are a co-author of a book, you are signing your name to it, and you must take responsibility for everything that is in that book. This is true for John Holdren and every other author.

    The fact Holdren is a co-author as justification for dismissal of his participation is a false argument here. It’s more than Holdren signing his name onto it. Co-Author means that Holdren participated at a rough equal amount of time to Mr and Mrs. Ehrlich in not only the published copy of Ecoscience but also previous drafts sent back from the editor to be worked upon by the authors or prior activities such as attending like minded writing groups and workshops (Meaning unless you actively participate in the act of authoring a book with other authors; you really can’t be accredited as a Co-Author without also risking never being published ever again and your published works yanked.

    I ask my readers: Do you think these two articles count as the renunciation and disavowal I requested?

    Considering the work is still in the market and isn’t yanked suggests that the authors are still spreading their supposedly repudiated old viewpoints and probably still making some earnings on the book’s purchase. I’d say no.

      

  472. 472Cashmere on Oct 16, 2012 at 11:27 am:

    Its all believable and makes me think of all the vaccines , gmos, and chemtrails they are all ready sterilizing us and were just letting it happen. Gardisel is killing teens eggs and making them go thru menopause , the food we eat is intended to keep our children from having children and I don’t even know what the chemtrails are really for.
    Every time I have a child I have been worried about taking rhogam because a dream told me it will kill me one day and that it’s just another experiment to see if they can sterilize me, and when I refuse I get bullied and my doc has been trying to have me tie my tubes for almost five years now, it’s not like I am havering children I can’t care for and none of them have any medical probablems so why is she pushing me to stop? I don’t believe in having my tubes tied and it’s not her biz unless I come to her asking.
    I’ve had HPV since I was five and when I was 12 I think something was wrong with my overies because they tried to get my mom to let them give me a hysterectomy and she flipped out, she told me if we hadn’t been so poor and she hadnt made so many wrong choices that would have never been brought up I think she was right. I’m about to have my fifth child , I am in great health so why would they want to sterilize me so young? Probably because my mom was a drug user having to many kids and on welfare , she was court ordered to have her tubes tied at 23 after my baby brother
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