R.I.P. Dan Kliman

Latest Updates:

[All new updates regarding Dan Kliman's death will now be added at the top of this post, to keep track of the latest developments. The original post begins below.]

Dec. 10, 1:00pm: The “Thoughts by Steve” blog has posted an important open letter from Allan Lavigne that says:

For those who may be reading this who are not familiar with me or my work in the community I am the Bay Area Director of Security for the Jewish Community Relations Council and the Jewish Community Federation and Liaison to the FBI Terrorist Task Force and San Francisco Police Departments Special Investigations. Personally I have 35 years of investigative experience, having been involved in many both high profile homicide cases as well as those deaths resulting from accidental causes.

I both knew and worked with Dan who was very helpful to our office. I was the first to contact and speak with investigators from both the SFPD and FBI concerning Dan’s death and the circumstances surrounding it, as well as his work in the community.

Although the official SFPD written report has not been concluded at the writing of this open letter, I have met with the investigators, spoken with friends of Dan as well as security at the building where the incident occurred and I personally examined the scene. And to that end I can say that the evidence that I have reviewed suggests that Dan’s passing was purely accidental in nature and not the result of foul play. This is supported by both video and physical evidence recovered at the scene that will be laid out in the final San Francisco report.

Dec. 10, 9:00am: Perpetua of Carthage has a new post with an email from a colleague of Dan’s who claims he always took the stairs when possible.

Dec. 9, 8:00pm: Joe Eskenazi of the S.F. Weekly has two new pieces about Dan and the investigation into his death, but both say essentially the same thing: that the trickle of information from the police has now stopped entirely, and that as a result everyone has resorted to speculation and guesswork about what might have happened. There are no longer any firm deadlines about when the investigation might be concluded, so everyone following the case — from reporters to activists — has no choice but to wait, and wonder.

Dec. 7, 1:00pm: An article in the San Francisco Examiner has another photo of the elevator, and conflicting statements from elevator experts, with some saying that it’s “impossible” to pry open the inner doors and fall down a shaft, and others saying that it does occasionally happen. Most importantly, the article states,

Cal-OSHA inspectors annually test elevators on their compliance with the law, and on Nov. 4 [just three weeks before Dan fell], workers inspected the elevators at the Sharon Building, Fryer said. During that test, inspectors stopped the elevators between every floor in the building, and at no time where they able to pry open the doors from the inside, beyond the mandated 4-inch gap.
“These doors should never open if they are between floors,” Fryer said.

Dec. 7, 11:30am: The JTA article about Dan’s death has now been reprinted in the Jerusalem Post, bringing more international attention to the case.

Dec. 7, 10:00am: The Zennie62 blog has posted videos of Dan being interviewed in Oakland a year ago; and also lists a memorial service being held for Dan on Sunday , Dec 14, 7:30pm at the Beth Jacob Congregation, 3778 Park Blvd., Oakland.

Dec. 5, 4:42pm: There is now a Facebook group called “Remembering Dan Kliman” where friends of Dan can share memories and photos of him. One of the commenters gives a description of Dan’s funeral in Schenectady, NY, on Sunday, Dec. 7.

Dec. 5, 3:40pm: The Times Union of Albany, New York published an article with details Dan’s youth on the East Coast, with a quote from his mother and information about his education and early activism.

Dec. 5, 2:00pm: j. the Jewish News Weekly of Northern California has published an article with quotes from some of Dan’s colleagues expressing doubt that his death was an accident.

Dec. 5, 11.24am: Cinnamon Stillwell has written a memorial post for Dan, accurately noting that “Dan would often hold aloft an Israeli flag and a rainbow flag side-by-side.” Which makes me wonder: Why have we heard so little from the gay community about the death of such a prominent gay activist?

Dec. 5, 9:00am: San Francisco Voice for Israel now has a memorial for Dan on their Web site.

Dec. 5, 1:10am: The Oy Bay! blog has now posted “The Unfolding Story of the Death of Dan Kliman,” with an extensive list of links related to Dan’s case, and noting some details that have gotten little attention thus far, such as that Dan “dated one of the instructors” at PARS, the Arabic language school in the building where his body was found.

Dec. 4, 1:00pm: CFS Warrior has now posted a description of a disturbing incident that happened to Dan shortly before his death:

Dr. Kliman shared with me that he had been to the Israeli consulate the week prior to 11/20. I don’t know what day it was. He said that as he pulled up on his bike a man suddenly came up to him put his face next to Dr. Kliman’s and said “Dan?” Dr. Kliman didnt’ know who the guy was, said he looked American, and when he said yes I’m Dan, the guy broke out in fluent Hebrew or Arabic (I can’t remember). Dr. Kliman said he’s been to the consulate many, many times and this had never occurred before. He was a little rattled that the man knew who he was but Dan didn’t recognize him. This occurred outside the consulate. When Dr. Kliman entered the consulate he was searched and his computer, ipod, cell phone were all put in a secured area. He was very surprised this and said this had never happened before. I was a little surprised at his response. He wasn’t so concerned about what occurred at the consolute-very puzzled by it since it was something that had never occurred before but he was rattled by the man who approached him outside the consulate. Dr. Kliman was not easily rattled by anything. A little red flag went up about his safety.

Dec. 4, 11:01am: Joe Eskenazi at the SFWeekly‘s blog “The Snitch” notes that “a task force of hate crime and homicide inspectors was formed only hours” after the police had definitively told Eskenazi that Dan’s death was an accident. Why? Eskenazi thinks either new evidence was found, or the police are trying to protect their reputation by appearing to be thorough.

Dec. 2, 5:00pm: The San Francisco Examiner published this article on December 2 which has the only known photograph of the ground-floor lobby and elevator doors of the Sharon Building, as well as a few extra details about the building’s security.


Here’s a video showing part of an interview with Dan conducted in November, 2007 at a counter-protest in Oakland against the anti-Israel group Women in Black. It shows how erudite and informed Dan was when it came to Israel.


 
[Original post:]

We’ve just learned that Dan Kliman, a dedicated pro-Israel activist in San Francisco, and occasional zombietime contributor, was found dead yesterday at the bottom of an elevator shaft:

The gruesome discovery Monday of a man’s body in the elevator shaft of a historic San Francisco high-rise has investigators and the property manager scratching their heads trying to figure out how the man got there.

The victim was identified early this morning by the San Francisco Medical Examiner’s office as Daniel J. Kliman, 38, of Oakland. Kliman is believed to have fallen down the shaft at the historic Sharon Building, at 55 New Montgomery St., last Tuesday evening, according to Brad Bernheim, the building manager.

Bernheim said the elevator was not working last week and had been secured so that no one could enter it. Workers showed up Monday to repair the elevator and discovered the body.

Last Tuesday, a surveillance camera recorded Kliman waiting for the elevator in the lobby. It wasn’t clear, however, how he ended up in the elevator shaft or whether he fell from that floor or higher, Bernheim said.

He said the victim was a student at the Pacific Arabic Resources School on the seventh floor of the building. He said there were no classes last week.

“I don’t know why he was there. That’s what we’re investigating,

UPDATE: A commenter on this post claims (in comments #36, 47 and 48 below) that the Arabic language school was not actually closed on Tuesday night, and that Dan interacted normally with people there on the 7th floor just minutes or even seconds before he entered the elevator or shaft; and also that the police are in fact interviewing these witnesses:

#36 Anonymous
There are THREE elevators next to each other in the building.
The man fell down the shaft from six flights. He fell on the way down from Pars [the school], not on his way up. the elevator was “supposedly” locked. and it may have been blocked off in the lobby. However it was not barricaded on the upper floors. And obviously, it accidentally opened on the seventh floor for Dan to have entered it. It subsequently got stuck and he pried the doors open and tried to climb out of it and jump down to the lower landing below him but slipped into the shaft.

It is not possible that someone or ones had a scuffle with Dan on the seventh floor, since there were a few students still on the seventh floor, despite the fact that there were no official classes. An instructor had spoken to him before he was leaving. There is less than twenty yards between where the elevator is and where the door to PARS is, and the door to Pars is wide open when people are there. Dan had contact with other people at Pars before he left. This happened to him on his way out, not on his way in. Although, perhaps he was stuck in that elevator a long time before deciding to attempt an escape from it. …

#47 Anonymous
…I am a student at Pars and I heard those details from other people who were at the school on the night that he was last seen. I don’t know ALL the details, but I know that he was not the only one who was at the school that evening. And he was not the last person to leave, although, how many people were around, I cannot say. Also, the building in general is very empty at night. …

#48 Anonymous
…Do you think this information was not conveyed to the police? They are interviewing everyone who was there on the night of this tragedy. And, of course, they are not publicizing every detail that they have not confirmed yet, i am sure. …

As of this writing, neither the police nor the media have verified any of these details.

UPDATE: The San Francisco Chronicle has a new article published on December 4 stating that “a task force including officers from the [police] department’s hate crimes and homicide units has been formed to look into Kliman’s death,” and that the police are promising a full and thorough investigation.

The Jewish Telegraphic Agency also has published an article about Dan:

Police probing death of Israel activist

A prominent Israel activist was found dead at the bottom of an elevator shaft.

Daniel J. Kliman, 38, was the co-founder of San Francisco Voice for Israel, an affiliate of the national Israel advocacy group StandWithUs, and a well-known pro-Israel activist in the San Francisco Bay area.

His body was found Monday in a San Francisco building where he was taking Arabic classes. It had been at the bottom of the elevator shaft since Nov. 25, building manager Brad Bernheim told the San Francisco Chronicle. There were no classes held last week, and the elevator supposedly was closed for repairs.

Police are investigating his death.

Kliman was scheduled to fly to Israel on Thanksgiving Day as part of the Honest Reporting mission, a pro-Israel media initiative.

“He was the public face of grass-roots Israel advocacy in the San Francisco Bay area,” said Mike Harris, his colleague at Voice for Israel. “He was passionate about standing up for Israel, literally — standing up in public with flags and signs.”

Kliman, also known as a fervent environmentalist, often was seen bicycling around the Bay Area instead of taking rides to reduce his carbon footprint, friends said.

More info here and here.

The “At the back of the hill” blog has some personal details:

Daniel J. Kliman was found dead yesterday at the bottom of an elevator shaft in the building where he was taking Arabic classes. He is believed to have fallen down the elevator shaft on Tuesday evening 11/25/08.
There were no classes last week. There were very few people in the building at the time. The defective elevator was “secure”.

It is still unclear how this happened.

Dan was supposed to fly to Israel last Thursday.

DANIEL J. KLIMAN, 38 YEARS OLD.

Dan was a founding member of San Francisco Voice for Israel, who tirelessly worked to promote a fair and balanced image for Israel in the Bay Area, regularly facing the threats and insults of anti-Semites and anti-Israel activists for several years.

Dan was a friend, a leader, and an inspiration. And Dan was a colleague, companion, and comrade in so many protests on behalf of Israel.

We, his friends and community, are going to miss him. May his memory be a blessing to all who knew him.

While many of Dan’s friends and acquaintances think there may be something suspicious about Dan’s death, the SFWeekly blog claims to have heard second-hand that the police have evidence that his death was entirely accidental — they say he fell while trying to climb out of a stuck elevator. If so, it’s not explained why this purported evidence was never mentioned publicly or to the press. On the other hand, the SFWeekly‘s version of events is contradicted by a new story in the S.F. Chronicle, which claims Dan stepped directly into an open shaft — and was not trying to escape from a stuck elevator car. Both stories insist it was an accident, and yet they give two completely different causes of the fall. Still other sites, such as Really Clear Politics, are already calling his death a “murder.” We may have to wait for further investigations to get the full story.

Perpetua of Carthage has a post featuring one of two pictures taken by “David” of the 7th story exterior elevator doors in the Sharon Building, where Dan was found; “David” originally posted the images here and provided this caption:

…Why is it that there are signs of scuffle on the 7th floor external elevator door? I took these photos this morning:

There are clear signs of struggle. I went to two other floors and saw no such signs. Remember that these are on the EXTERNAL doors that are ONLY on the 7th floor, not on other floors. In other words, the only way that those marks could have gotten there is that if there was some kind of struggle on the 7th floor (the floor of the PAR Arabic School where Dan was going for class), NOT any where else where the elevator car may have been stuck. The police are claiming that Dan tried to get out of a stuck elevator car, but the doors that you see on these pictures are the external doors on the 7th floor, which are stationary and do not move up and down with the car.

I have no way of verifying if the marks and stains on the door are the result of a “scuffle” or of something else that happened during the investigation itself (e.g. police investigators pulling at the doors to test if they could be opened manually; or perhaps the visible marks are left over graphite powder from the police “fingerprint dusting” the doors; etc.). Look at David’s images and come to your own conclusions.

UPDATE: The SFWeekly blog has a statement from a San Francisco Police Inspector who absolutely insists Dan’s death was accidental:

“He gets into the elevator car. For some inexplicable reason, the elevator gets stuck between floors — we think between the sixth and seventh. He is somehow able to open the doors from inside and sees that he’s between floors,” said [San Francisco Police Department Inspector Matt] Krimsky, who is investigating the death. “We know he got into the elevator … and ended up in the elevator well. How he did that is under investigation.”

Krimsky claimed the SFPD had “evidence” placing Kliman within the elevator car, but would not go into further detail. “All I can tell you is we have physical evidence he forced his way out of the elevator. Beyond that I cannot compromise the integrity of this investigation.”

“We’ve got forensic evidence pointing toward a tragic accident. There is no evidence of foul play whatsoever. Underscore that, bold it and print it with an exclamation point.”

A new article in the S.F. Chronicle confirms this narrative, quoting a friend of Dan’s who says the police are sure he climbed out from inside a stalled elevator car.

Meanwhile, the Israel Jewish News blog thinks his death was not accidental and may have been politically motivated. Debbie Schlussel agrees, stating that there seem to be too many convenient coincidences surrounding what happened for it to be a random accident. At the back of the hill now has a new post discussing how intensely hated Dan was by his political enemies, providing ample motive for an attack. The Associated Press reports that Cal/OSHA investigators are inspecting the elevator to ensure public safety, to see if it opened somehow by itself or if it was forced open. Perhaps this investigation will shed light on what actually happened.

Dan was also politically active in other areas, including cycling, vegetarianism and gay rights. The Bicycle Blog has a memorial post about Dan from the cycling community’s point of view, and includes a photo of Dan’s bike still parked outside the building where he was found, overlooked by the police. The “heeb’n’vegan” blog has a very informative post about Dan’s deeply moral insights about the ethics of being an observant Jew who is also cares about animal rights. The “With the Misnagdim” blog has a memorial post discussing Dan’s activities in Orthodox Judaism. Dan’s Facebook page also lists some of his other political interests. Smooth Stone blog has a memorial page for Dan, as does the ADL.

Dan was a doctor as well, and many of his patients and colleagues have expressed their condolences and feelings of loss in the comments sections here and on other blogs. CFS Warrior was one of Dan’s patients, and in a long post praising Dan’s medical abilities, made this unsettling statement:

It was also during our last visit that he shared some information with me that leads me to the conclusion that his death was not an accident. Something had occurred a week prior that he was puzzled and a bit rattled about. He shared it with me. I commented how it sounded like a spy novel and was puzzled as well. 

What happened to Dan the week before that made him “rattled” and “sounded like a spy novel”? The blogger does not say. [Note: See update above near top of page.]

Although I did not know Dan personally, we communicated often via email, always in relation to protests in which he was participating as a representative of San Francisco Voice for Israel.

One thing I know for sure is that Dan was a great photographer, and I featured many of his photos in my reports over the years. You can see some of his outstanding work here and here.

Dan, you will be greatly missed.

UPDATE:

Here is a short tribute to the Dan I knew — Dan the Photographer:


Photo by Dan Kliman of pro-Israel protesters.


Photo by Dan Kliman of anti-Israel protesters.


Dan the Photographer.


Photo by “Dusty” of Dan at this year’s Pride Parade in San Francisco.

117 Responses to “R.I.P. Dan Kliman”

  1. 1DangerousNate on Dec 2, 2008 at 4:08 pm:

    Sounds like a very suspicious death to me, but I hope nothing happened.

    RIP Dan.

  2. 2citruscanker on Dec 2, 2008 at 5:31 pm:

    I hate to ask, zombie, but do you have any precautions set in place to let your loyal readers know if you bit the big one?

  3. 3zombie on Dec 2, 2008 at 6:01 pm:

    2citruscanker:

    Nope. I have no notification system set up. I don’t plan to need one.

    What’s doubly spooky is that many of the pro-Palestinian thugs in S.F. conflated Dan and me, and thought that I was him and/or he was me.

  4. 4suzanne on Dec 2, 2008 at 6:07 pm:

    A great man, and a great group of people, he led to take many stands – for Israel and its Jewish people -
    according to the Torah and haftorah, and prophets of Israel.

    May Adonai, blessed be His HOLY NAME, see this and raise the standard against anyone or persons responsible for
    Dan’s untimely demise.

    May he send his shalom to this group and to Dan’s family
    and friends at this time. Any knowledge of the HOLY Torah and haftorah and prophets shows that the land
    which Israel occupies belongs ONLY to the twelve tribes of ISRAEL and to none other. And there is to be NO
    COMPROMISE – with what the L’rd G’d commanded, it shall be! To compromise, is to go against the will of
    a mighty LIVING and HOLY G’d !

  5. 5average_guy on Dec 2, 2008 at 9:22 pm:

    RIP

  6. 6The Last Registered Democrat on Dec 2, 2008 at 10:48 pm:

    I just heard this through my e-mail. Baruch dayan emet.

    I agree with DangerousNate–an accidental death is tragedy enough, please God that is all. But it’s a strange enough set of circumstances to make me very uneasy.

    His poor family.

  7. 7Miriam on Dec 2, 2008 at 10:55 pm:

    I have know Dan for the last few years through SF Voice for Israel. His heart and soul were dedicated to bringing peace to the middle east, and making sure he did not contribute to the worlds pollution problem.

    The news of his tragic and unforeseen death saddens me greatly. The Jewish community and everyone who stands against terror has lost a great leader.

    HIs death is quite suspicious to me. I hope evidence shows it was a tragic accident but my gut tells me there might me something more involved. Over the years many of the anti-Israel protesters, specifically , palestinian ones have made verbal threats towards SF Voice for Israel members and supporters.

    Dan you and your hard work and dedication for so many causes will never be forgotten.

    Dan KIlman Z”L

  8. 8David on Dec 2, 2008 at 11:11 pm:

    This is awful, awful news. I remember Dan from pro-Israel rallies, where he was a great organizer and a good hearted man.

    This is highly suspicious. Elevator doors don’t just open for people to fall in. It is extremely rare for people to fall down elevator shafts. Generally, when it happens, it is small children that fall down the narrow space that can open up between the elevator itself and the door. On top of that, jimmy-marks were found on the elevator doors, showing that someone pried open the door. Why would anyone pry open an elevator door? We know that Dan would never do this.

    The police are doing absolutely nothing. This must not pass.

  9. 9Anonymous on Dec 3, 2008 at 1:53 am:

    I haven’t heard about any pry-marks. How did you come to hear of this? It makes the whole affair that much more sinister. May Dan rest in peace.

  10. 10Anonymous on Dec 3, 2008 at 8:09 am:

    The police want us to believe that a healthy man who rode a bicycle everywhere would force an elevator door open instead of taking the stairs? Bullocks.

    There is a report that states: “The Arabic class Kliman came to attend on the last night of his life had been canceled, but he apparently didn’t know that, said close friend Marshall Schwartz.

    “He wanted to learn more about the language, and liked studying there,” Schwartz said. Kliman thought of himself as pro-Israel but not anti-Arab, he added, and had even dated an instructor at the language program in the past.”

    http://israeljewishnews.blogspot.com/2008/12/suspicious-death-of-pro-israel-activist.html

  11. 11The New Centrist on Dec 3, 2008 at 9:24 am:

    Very sorry to hear about this. My prayers go out to his family.

    “Elevator doors don’t just open for people to fall in. It is extremely rare for people to fall down elevator shafts.”

    Maybe in SF, but not in NYC where I live. Seems like every week someone is dying due to an elevator accident.

  12. 12Ringo the Gringo on Dec 3, 2008 at 10:13 am:

    Very sad.

    My prayers for Dan and his family.

  13. 13Lupo on Dec 3, 2008 at 2:12 pm:

    Check out the rabid anti-semetism (mostly deleted, but you can read people’s reactions to it) on an sfgate article about his life:
    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/02/BAVE14GCD6.DTL

    Also, same day as Mumbai massacres. Probability of his coincidentally dying on the same day as a major terrorist attack is about 1/1400. Poor Dan.

  14. 14Frisco Patriot on Dec 3, 2008 at 3:13 pm:

    A friend who works just a block away went to the building where Dan died and took photos this morning. He said there were definite signs of struggle on the elevator door. Very clear and obvious. I’ll ask if he’ll post them here.

    I demonstrated with Dan and knew him from that realm. It is a dark realm filled with demonic individuals who murderously hate Jews and, of course, Israel. To face them as we did all over the Bay area is to stare into the face of genocidal intent no different than those who perpetrated the Shoah. I’ve never been to a place that loathes Jews the way the leftist PC culture of the Bay area does. I regard this evil energy as one of the signature qualities of contemporary San Francisco. Tragically, the Jewish Establishment here (JCRC, JFed, JCC, etc) is cowardly, inept, in near total denial, and seemingly capable of venting its wrath only upon grass-roots activists like Dan Kliman and ourselves.

    Was Dan murdered? OF COURSE! Did I anticipate a cover-up? OF COURSE!

  15. 15zombie on Dec 3, 2008 at 3:25 pm:

    14 Frisco Patriot:

    Yes, have him either post here a link to the photos, or, if he wants, email me the photos (zombie at zombietime dot com) and I’ll post them in the report.

  16. 16Skip Smith on Dec 3, 2008 at 3:30 pm:

  17. 17Matthew on Dec 3, 2008 at 3:42 pm:

    i am dizzy with shock. i’ve known Dan for 4-5 years, from shul in Oakland. The last time I saw him was a few weeks back, smiling as he always did, riding by on his bike. this is truly tragic. regardless of how it happened, his beautiful spirit will be missed by all of us.

  18. 18zombie on Dec 3, 2008 at 3:45 pm:

    #16 Skip Smith: “Was this also murder?”

    I have no clue. I don’t know that case, never heard of the person who died, know nothing of the circumstances beyond what was in the article.

    Moreover, your use of the word “also” implies that I’m saying this was murder. I’m not — I’m only linking to various articles and blogs, some of which suggest an accident, some of which don’t. I’m trying to be comprehensive, not make a statement.

  19. 19Skip Smith on Dec 3, 2008 at 3:51 pm:

    zombie, my comment was aimed more at Frisco Patriot than you, who seems convinced this was a murder based solely on the fact that Mr. Kliman was unpopular with some people. Sorry for the confusion.

  20. 20Ken on Dec 3, 2008 at 4:11 pm:

    “Why would anyone pry open an elevator door?”

    To get out of an elevator that was stuck. Like the police said. As for a cover up, police don’t usually talk about details during an on-going investigation.

    Either way, RIP Dan. I knew you only through Zombie’s blog, but you seemed like a good person.

  21. 21Daniel G on Dec 3, 2008 at 5:03 pm:

    It doesn’t make any sense. I smell cover up. San Francisco is not know to be Pro-Israel. I just going by on what I’ve seen.

  22. 22David on Dec 3, 2008 at 5:27 pm:

    The stellar SFPD (homicide clearance rate: 25%) will surely get to the bottom of this.

    *snort*

  23. 23Dave on Dec 3, 2008 at 5:58 pm:

    He will be sorely missed. We’ve lost a good man.

  24. 24Anonymous on Dec 3, 2008 at 6:12 pm:

    Well, Skip, we all know Larudee and we all know that PCWF is an ISM front group (ie, raise money for “children” and give it to terrorists). My question: where was Larudee at the time of Kliman’s death? Well, Skip, might want to call your friend Paul and ask him. Maybe he was busy running arms to Gaza by sea at the time. That’s a good alibi.

  25. 25ed on Dec 3, 2008 at 6:25 pm:

    don’t forget–one of the tenets of radical islam is to throw “unbelievers” off of the tops of buildings

  26. 26Anonymous on Dec 3, 2008 at 6:46 pm:

    Dr. Kliman was my primary care physician and I felt so fortunate to have a doctor as wonderful as he was.
    count me as one of the many people who will miss him dearly.

  27. 27Erik on Dec 3, 2008 at 6:56 pm:

    Daniel Kliman was also my primary physician. Actually, more than just my physician – he was an infinite source of wisdom and advice regarding my faith. Probably one of the finest people I’ve ever met. I’ve only just learned of this and I am too upset to say anything else. There is no way this was an accident. No possible way.

  28. 28Anonymous on Dec 3, 2008 at 7:02 pm:

    “What’s doubly spooky is that many of the pro-Palestinian thugs in S.F. conflated Dan and me, and thought that I was him and/or he was me.”

    Have you told this to the police? Or the FBI via their anonymous tip site?

  29. 29David on Dec 3, 2008 at 7:53 pm:

    I went to the Sharon building today and took two photos of the elevators on the 7th floor. I don’t know if photos can be embedded or not, but here goes:


    There are clear signs of struggle. I went to two other floors and saw no such signs. Remember that these are on the EXTERNAL doors that are ONLY on the 7th floor, not on other floors. In other words, the only way that those marks could have gotten there is that if there was some kind of struggle on the 7th floor (the floor of the PAR Arabic School where Dan was going for class), NOT any where else where the elevator car may have been stuck. The police are claiming that Dan tried to get out of a stuck elevator car, but the doors that you see on these pictures are the external doors on the 7th floor, which are stationary and do not move up and down with the car.

  30. 30David on Dec 3, 2008 at 7:53 pm:

    I see that the embedding didn’t work, here are links to the photos of the doors:

    http://75.101.144.122:84/images/sharon_door_one.jpg

    http://75.101.144.122:84/images/sharon_door_two.jpg

  31. 31David on Dec 3, 2008 at 7:56 pm:

    Note that every other elevator door was clean and white and showed absolutely no marks at all. This is not a dirty building. The halls are all made of white marble, and the building is kept very clean, there is no chance that this just happened to be this way.

  32. 32Throbert McGee on Dec 3, 2008 at 8:45 pm:

    Zombie — In case you missed it, this photo from a SanFran blog linked at LGF shows Dr. Kliman in a blue T-shirt while a sour-faced harpy in a black T-shirt stands behind him. Look carefully at the woman’s shirt and you’ll see why I call her a “sour-faced harpy” — that’s the logo of Q.U.I.T., also known as “Queers for Palestine.”

  33. 33Saul Wall (The Snake Oil Baron) on Dec 3, 2008 at 8:57 pm:

    Aren’t the building managers saying that the shaft was under maintenance and the doors were clamped shut? If so he would have have had to pry them open (with his bare hands?) to get in, not to get out after the elevator “stalled”. But police seem to be able to rule it an accident without even knowing what happened. With such psychic powers at work for the SF police, I feel very confident that the case is in good hands.

  34. 34Anonymous on Dec 3, 2008 at 9:26 pm:

    This is obviously murder. We need a private investigator and or Israeli investigator to investigate. Shame on the SFPD for concluding an accident before the medical examiner report or OSHA report were been released. It needs to be investigated why he was there. Sounds to me like he was setup. The announcement happened to not reach Kliman. He showed up to class on the 7th floor. People had already pried open the elevator door next to his elevator. They either surprised him and pushed him in or attacked him and threw him in. Murderers then closed the elevator door and left. From the police statements, they have video of the lobby so they should know who was there, unless the murderers used a back door.

  35. 35tw``` on Dec 3, 2008 at 10:28 pm:

    I’m so sorry for the loss of your friend and colleague. Reading the comments from his former patients and friends elsewhere, it is very hard for me to accept that this was an accidental death… at least not in the way the police are describing it.

  36. 36Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 2:05 am:

    People,
    There are THREE elevators next to each other in the building.
    The man fell down the shaft from six flights. He fell on the way down from Pars, not on his way up. the elevator was “supposedly” locked. and it may have been blocked off in the lobby. However it was not barricaded on the upper floors. And obviously, it accidentally opened on the seventh floor for Dan to have entered it. It subsequently got stuck and he pried the doors open and tried to climb out of it and jump down to the lower landing below him but slipped into the shaft.
    It is not possible that someone or ones had a scuffle with Dan on the seventh floor, since there were a few students still on the seventh floor, despite the fact that there were no official classes. An instructor had spoken to him before he was leaving. There is less than twenty yards between where the elevator is and where the door to PARS is, and the door to Pars is wide open when people are there. Dan had contact with other people at Pars before he left. This happened to him on his way out, not on his way in. Although, perhaps he was stuck in that elevator a long time before deciding to attempt an escape from it.

  37. 37Russ on Dec 4, 2008 at 2:31 am:

    I have heard second hand stories of elevator technicians making mistakes before. eg, “clearing” an elevator and then beginning brake tests on the elevator with people still in side. Not likely to hurt anyone, but definitely quite terrifying.

  38. 38The brain on Dec 4, 2008 at 5:20 am:

    Did he fall onto some bullits as well?

  39. 39buzzsawmonkey on Dec 4, 2008 at 7:31 am:

    Given the fact that the late Dan Kliman, in addition to being vocally and famously pro-Israel was gay, that he was in the building for an Arabic class, and that there have been numerous examples of imams and other Islamic religious authorities being recorded as saying that homosexuals should be executed by being thrown off a tall building or other great height, I would say that his death in an elevator shaft is extremely suspicious.

  40. 40Trimegistus on Dec 4, 2008 at 7:57 am:

    The “scuffle” marks on the elevator doors look like fingerprint dusting by police. They often use a graphite powder.

  41. 41Troy Riser on Dec 4, 2008 at 8:10 am:

    We have a saying here in Indiana: ‘The tall wheat gets the scythe’. Expect the bravest and most outspoken–the most effective–to be targeted for violence and intimidation, and not just those who are staunchly pro-Israel. Although I know how tinfoil hat conspiratorial I sound when I say/write this, I believe we in the US are beginning to experience the kind of organized coercion Europeans have been enduring for years, now. Think of Dan Kliman’s mysterious death as a form of communication. Theo Van Gogh was just one man, but his death was a message to every filmmaker out there–and so has been the murder of a number of Russian journalists, and so, in an obviously milder, less lethal form, was the character assassination of Joe the Plumber. The aims of the parties delivering the message may vary, but their mindsets and methods are indistinguishable, and the message is always the same.

  42. 42zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 10:18 am:

    #36 Anonymous

    “It is not possible that someone or ones had a scuffle with Dan on the seventh floor, since there were a few students still on the seventh floor, despite the fact that there were no official classes. An instructor had spoken to him before he was leaving. … Dan had contact with other people at Pars before he left.”

    How do you know this? Where did you find these details? Link please? That would be crucial information if true, but I’ve seen no mention of it except in your comment. Everyone reading the media assumes that there was no one else around on the 7th floor. Please provide confirmation. Were you an eyewitness? Or did you read those details in an article somewhere?

  43. 43The Last Registered Democrat on Dec 4, 2008 at 11:00 am:

    “But police seem to be able to rule it an accident without even knowing what happened. With such psychic powers at work for the SF police, I feel very confident that the case is in good hands.”

    The police have not ruled it an accident. Per this morning’s Chronicle, a task force has been formed to investigate, using officers from both Homicide and Hate Crimes. Please do not use this tragedy, whether accident or murder, to trash SFPD. I know a number of the officers from the hate crimes unit, and they are top-of-the-line professionals.

    I don’t know how seriously the building management’s statements about the securing of the elevator can be taken–they are facing a bad lawsuit if it can be shown that their negligence contributed to Dr. Kliman’s death.

    I just feel sick about this. Either way…what an awful thing to happen.

  44. 44zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 12:22 pm:

    #43 The Last Registered Democrat:

    Per this morning’s Chronicle, a task force has been formed to investigate, using officers from both Homicide and Hate Crimes.

    Really? I searched the SF Chronicle site and could find no reference to that. Do you have a link to the article which mentions the Hate Crime task force?

  45. 45Frisco Patriot on Dec 4, 2008 at 12:31 pm:

    I’m troubled by the remarks of #36 ANONYMOUS. Where is he getting this information? I’ve seen it nowhere else. This is extremely suspicious.

  46. 46zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 12:34 pm:

    #45 Frisco Patriot

    If what #36 Anonymous is saying is true, then it is crucial information for the investigation. The people on the 7th floor (if there were such people) are the last ones to have seen Dan alive and are critical witnesses to the case. How come we have heard nothing about these witnesses until that comment? #36 Anonymous, you need to contact the police immediately, if you know something.

  47. 47Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 12:44 pm:

    I am number 36. And I am a student at Pars and I heard those details from other people who were at the school on the night that he was last seen.
    I don’t know ALL the details, but I know that he was not the only one who was at tjhe school that evening. And he was not the last person to leave, although, how many people were around, I cannot say. Also, the building in general is very empty at night.

    Buzzsawmonkey, you are an idiot.
    First of all: There is nothing Islamic about PARS. And we are actively discouraged from talking politics around the school. Daniel Kliman was going to classes there for almost three years. And clearly, he like the place and the people, as many people do, and they liked him, regardless if anybody would have shared or not shared his political views about Israel.
    Second of all, currently, there is only one teacher (a 100 pound twenty five year old girl) who is muslim. Currently, I think only three are even from the middle east. the director and main staff are from the United States. And the students , are obviously, americans, all of them.
    Most of the teachers at Pars, percentage wise are GAY. The director is Gay, at least two of the main teachers are GAY.

    Your assumptions are outrageous.

    Not to mention, that being muslim and or being arabic has nothing to do with being a murderer.

  48. 48Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 12:48 pm:

    and ps from #36/47,
    to #46, do you think this information was not conveyed to the police? They are interviewing everyone who was there on the night of this tragedy. And, of course, they are not publicizing every detail that they have not confirmed yet, i am sure. The people writing here and on some other sites are making there theories up, without having all the correct facts. They are talking as if he came in the building, waiting for an elevator and then fell down the shaft. NOT SO. And they are even misinterpreting what the police said so far about their theory of what happened.

  49. 49zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 1:34 pm:

    #47 + 48 Anonymous

    The information you are providing in your comments is entirely new to the general public. Don’t blame people for spinning wild theories, because the police have revealed almost nothing about what happened. As far as anyone reading the media knew up until this moment, we all thought Dan must have been totally alone in the building (aside from anyone who may have attacked him, theoretically), because that’s what the news reports led everyone to believe. No one had any idea that the police were interviewing eyewitnesses who saw Dan moments before he entered the elevator/shaft. Also, most people don’t know anything about the layout of that building or about the school staff, just they just had to guess.

    I am going to make an update based on your comments, with the necessary proviso that the info is coming from an anonymous commenter. If true, it’s something that everyone should know.

  50. 50Anthony on Dec 4, 2008 at 1:38 pm:

    Zombie wrote above, responding to “The Last Registered Democrat”:

    44. zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 12:22 pm:

    #43 The Last Registered Democrat:

    Per this morning’s Chronicle, a task force has been formed to investigate, using officers from both Homicide and Hate Crimes.

    Really? I searched the SF Chronicle site and could find no reference to that. Do you have a link to the article which mentions the Hate Crime task force? [END Zombie's response.]

    There is such a story:

    “The opening he probably fell through was between the base of the elevator and the floor of the building, and it was absolutely big enough for a person to fall through,” police Inspector Matt Krimsky said. “We think this is probably what happened, and there is no indication of foul play.”

    However, Krimsky said that “to be as complete as we can be,” a task force including officers from the department’s hate crimes and homicide units has been formed to look into Kliman’s death.

    Link:

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/12/04/BAQO14GRTS.DTL

  51. 51zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 2:12 pm:

    #50 Anthony:
    Thank you. I have now added an update with a link to the article.

    #48 Anonymous:
    I’ve added an update with your comments as well.

  52. 52buzzsawmonkey on Dec 4, 2008 at 2:36 pm:

    #47 Anonymous

    Buzzsawmonkey, you are an idiot.
    First of all: There is nothing Islamic about PARS. And we are actively discouraged from talking politics around the school. Daniel Kliman was going to classes there for almost three years. And clearly, he like the place and the people, as many people do, and they liked him, regardless if anybody would have shared or not shared his political views about Israel.
    Second of all, currently, there is only one teacher (a 100 pound twenty five year old girl) who is muslim. Currently, I think only three are even from the middle east. the director and main staff are from the United States. And the students , are obviously, americans, all of them.
    Most of the teachers at Pars, percentage wise are GAY. The director is Gay, at least two of the main teachers are GAY.

    Your assumptions are outrageous.

    Not to mention, that being muslim and or being arabic has nothing to do with being a murderer.

    Idiot I may be, but not on the grounds you have suggested.

    There is “nothing Islamic about PARS”? Really? Not any of the teachers, not any of the students; not any of their relatives, friends, or acquaintances? Every single one of these is completely unrelated to anything Islamic? Sorry, that does not pass any kind of credence test–particularly as you have stated yourself that you “are actively discouraged from talking politics around the school”, confirmation, if any were needed, that political viewpoints are at least potentially, and probably actually, a hot-button there.

    Regardless of how many of the staff are practicing Muslims, or from the Middle East, any one of the participants in classes there–co-classmates or instructors–could, depending on their circle of acquaintance, have let drop to someone else that Kliman was an attendee at classes there, and that person could have laid plans accordingly. That Kliman was seemingly unaware of a cancellation that other class members were seemingly aware of is worth looking at.

    In addition, I would point out that your attempt to suggest that someone American-born could not commit a murder in the name of Islam is absurd; the DC sniper, to choose one among many, springs to mind. It is, likewise absurd to suggest that someone who is gay could not commit murder merely because they are gay; indeed, one can readily envision that someone of Islamist bent not only could but would do so in order to remove any guilt, or tinge of suspicion, of homosexuality from himself.

    Being Muslim or Arabic may have nothing to do with being a murderer, but you sure as hell couldn’t prove that by the ideologies and behavior all too common in the Ummah today. And, once again, the death of someone of homosexual inclination from a great height is openly endorsed by many, many Middle Eastern religious authorities, their words recorded on video and on paper.

    Kliman’s death may well have been an accident, but it would be malfeasance in the extreme for those investigating his death not to look very closely at these possibilities, if only to ensure that they do not, in fact, hold water.

  53. 53Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 3:06 pm:

    Best Damn News heard in a while…

  54. 54Frisco Patriot on Dec 4, 2008 at 3:08 pm:

    What buzzsawmonkey says in 52 makes perfect sense. Even more to the point, functioning as a highly visible pro-Israel street activist in the SF Bay area is life-threatening. It shouldn’t be that way but it is! I personally avoid Middle Eastern run coffee shops and restaurants where I could be (and have been) recognized. The Global Jihad takes no prisoners and this is a very bad time for Jews world-wide. Despite that, most are in denial of the danger, especially in SF where liberal bromides still have many mesmerized. Did veteran journalist Daniel Pearl think he was being deceived and set-up for murder? Of course not. Would Dan Kliman recognize a trap? Knowing the man as I slightly did, the answer is definitely NO: he didn’t have “seichel” (Yiddish for street smarts). He was impulsive, impatient, and often angry. Can I imagine him being naively trapped? YES. Could I imagine him idiotically clambering out of a stuck elevator and falling to his death? Sadly, YES. And that’s about as far as I can go.

  55. 55zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 3:10 pm:

    #53 Anonymous:

    Would you care to elaborate? What news are you referring to? Why is it good?

  56. 56Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 2:45 pm:

    Dr. Kliman was the primary physician for myself and my daughter. He was so intelligent and worldly. We adored him. He went above and beyond the call of being just a general practitioner. He was always available to us and no question was ever too outlandish. My daughter is devastated at the loss of such an incredible human being with such a bright future ahead of him. Where is the justice?? Our hearts are broken that we will never see or speak with our dear friend again. A friend who cared about his patients and the world they lived in.
    We implore the San Francisco homicide unit to do the right thing and thoroughly investigate this tragic “accident”.

    You will live on in our hearts and we will never forget your smile.

  57. 57Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder on Dec 4, 2008 at 3:21 pm:

    I don’t trust the SF Police department.

    You can not just pry your way out of an elevator then fall 7 floors to your death, if you are between floors, you stand on the car from the top or work your way to the bottom from inside the car. Since the car travels against the wall, there is no way to fall unless you move to the sides or back, even still, its nearly impossible to pry the doors open and get on top of the car.

    This just doesn’t make sense.

    RIP Dan

  58. 58zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 4:02 pm:

    #55 Frisco Patriot
    #57 Liberalism Is A Mental Disorder
    …and everyone:

    From what I can piece together from all the various tidbits revealed in comments, on blogs, and in MSM articles:

    If it was an accident, this is how the whole thing could have played out:

    Dan arrived at the Sharon Building on the evening of Tuesday, Nov. 25. The elevator was not yet known to be broken, and was not indicated as such. Dan rode one of the two working elevators to the 7th floor (or, alternately, took the stairs). When he got there, he walked down the hall to the PARS Arabic school, and the people there told him the class had been cancelled. There were people around, but nothing untoward happened. Then Dan walked back to the elevators, and by sheer bad luck chose the one of the three elevators that was in fact broken, but which was not yet known to be broken. The doors opened, he stepped into the car, pressed the button, the door closed, the elevator went down only a few feet, until it was mid-way between the 6th and 7th floors, and unexpectedly stopped. Dan then, presumably, banged on the doors and pressed the various buttons inside, but again due to bad luck or bad design, no one still in the building could hear his banging or button-pressing. One by one, everyone leaves the building, going down on the other two elevators, having noted that one of the elevators was not working. They glided down in the adjacent shafts and did not hear Dan banging. Then, presumably after many hours, Dan realized that it was the middle of the night and he didn’t want to spend the entire night trapped in the elevator, because he had to get ready to go to Israel on Thursday, so had a lot of preparing to do. The bottom half of the elevator car was exposed to the 6th floor landing exterior doors. In desperation, Dan successfully pried open the internal doors, saw the top of the closed 6th floor landing exterior doors, and somehow got them partway open too, then tried to wriggle out of the elevator car, through the opened interior doors, and through the top of the pried open 6th-floor exterior doors. Note that, if you were standing on the 6th floor landing, and the doors opened, you would see the bottom half of the elevator, and beneath it, and empty open shaft. Somehow, during his attempted escape, Dan could have gotten out of the car, but never made it through the 6th-floor exterior doors, either because they closed on him, or because he made it through momentarily but then lost his balance and fell backwards into the now-exposed shaft underneath the car at the bottom half of the 6th-floor exterior elevator doorway. THEN, the following morning, the building’s management learns that one of the elevators is stuck, and puts up signs saying not to try to use it, and turns it off — not knowing what had happened to Dan. THEN, the following Monday when Dan’s body was found and the building manager was interviewed by reporters, he stated that the elevator had been broken and clearly indicated as such and was closed and inaccessible — either because he was trying trying to cover himself legally in case he got sued, or (more likely) because he was at that moment unaware of the chronology of what had happened with Dan, and didn’t know or remember than Dan had used the elevator BEFORE it was indicated as being broken. Then, the reporters printed what the manager said, that Dan had somehow gotten into an elevator known to be broken, and a great deal of confusion and mystification ensued, because the story as the manager stated it didn’t make sense.

    Now, I’m not announcing confidently that the scenario I’ve just spelled out is true, but it does make some sense, and would be a reasonable possibility if in fact this turns out to have been an accident. It also jibes with many other glossed over details, such as the police claim that Dan’s computer and money were found inside the elevator car. The “signs of struggle” on the exterior of the 7th floor door could be fingerprint powder. The lack-of-notification of the cancelled class could have just been a random oversight. The people on the 7th floor could have been completely unaware of anything that had happened.

    …Alternately, something nefarious did in fact happen, but as of this moment we have no proof of that (or of anything, really).

  59. 59Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 4:26 pm:

    #54 is a great demonstration of the hatred against the Jewish community.

  60. 60buzzsawmonkey on Dec 4, 2008 at 4:27 pm:

    I admire your caution, zombie–and the scenario you propose is certainly plausible. My concern is merely that other, less benign scenarios–at least equally plausible–might be dismissed on the threshold precisely because what you suggest is one of the available possibilities.

    Law enforcement spokesmen and the media have covered up, whitewashed, and/or downplayed jihadi actions in the past–with the Halberstam and the Empire State Building shootings in New York, the LAX shooting, the Seattle shooting, and, if I recall, the Bay Area shooting spree a year or so ago–and there is accordingly no reason not to have concern that any such lead in this case would not be equally brushed aside, precisely because if true it would be a political hot potato, and a plausible finding of accidental death, whether or not true, would be much more convenient.

  61. 61zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 4:39 pm:

    #60 buzzsawmonkey: “…and, if I recall, the Bay Area shooting spree a year or so ago…”

    I think you must be referring to the Hamid Popal vehicular rampage, in which an Afghani Muslim man drove his vehicle dozens of miles across the Bay Area, killing one person and seriously injuring many others along the way, only to conclude his spree by ramming the vehicle into the front of the San Francisco Jewish Community Center on California Street, which I believe had been his ultimate destination all along. When he couldn’t broach the building’s facade with his car, he careened away a couple more blocks before finally being surrounded and stopped by the police, to whom he announced on his arrest, “I am a terrorist.”

    Yes, that case was wildly mis-characterized in the press as well. He was dismissed as “mentally ill,” and the Jewish Center crash was treated as of no more significance than any of his other attempts to kill passersby with his car.

    Dan’s case is still being investigated. Perhaps OSHA, which may not have the same political agenda as the San Francisco police department, will shed some real light on what really happened with the elevators. We’ll just have to wait and see before we declare a miscarriage of justice.

  62. 62Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 5:06 pm:

    Zombie,
    Exactly.

    buzzsawmonkey, i think you and Patriot are extremely paranoid.
    the difference here is that there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE as yet of any wrong doing or foul play. NONE.
    And yet you assume that because he was going to an Arabic class and because it was a school for Arabic, that somehow that indicates that there are islamic nuttcases present, which is totally divorced from reality.
    This is not f-ing Pakistan. We are discouraged from talking politics for various reasons. Mainly because it is not relevant to studying arabic. Second, this is a small tight knit environment of students and teachers, and they want to keep everyone getting along in a good way and accepting our differences and different reasons for learning arabic.

    There is wide gulf between political disagreements and antagonism around political beliefs and MURDER> A very very wide gulf. To think anything different is ludicrous. It doesn’t matter who we are talking about, americans or gays or arab americans or even muslims (of which there are very very few studying at Pars. this is not a school for Koranic arabic). This doesn’t make people potential murders.
    You would never say that because Dan Kliman was a community leader and activist who was often verbally sparing with others not sharing his views – that this makes HIM a potential murderer, would you? It would be absurd.
    I dont’ know Dan personally. But from what I heard, he is a very well liked person at PARS.
    My comment emphasizing that other staff members at PARS are Gay, was in response to Buzzsaw’s biggoted message about how muslim are inclined to throw gay people off of buildings (!!)… And the truth is that there is a lot of gayness walking all over Pars. So it would be a little strange bizarre to say the least if some deranged hidden radical was willing to learn arabic from a gay person, but secretly was plotting to kill another gay person.
    Do you hear yourself????? what paranoid world lies in your brain? It is so warped an idea.
    I would love to know exactly how many real incidents of some muslim throwing a gay person off a building you could find in america, or anywhere for that matter.

    a small point. People seem to make a lot of the canceled classes. I am a student there, and i have shown up before during a holiday break not realizing that my class was canceled. There was in this case, no general email sent around that classes were canceled on the days leading up to thanksgiving. Each teacher is supposed to remind student, although I am not sure if they are even required to send and email. Dan was in a high level of Arabic, and it is certain that there are only two maybe three people in his class, and likely the teacher did not send some email reminder. It happens. In addition, other students show up for tutoring or to talk to instructor or staff at times. All this is not that strange.
    The police are not idiots. I am sure they talked to every person who showed up that night.
    As for some outsider. Who knows, but it would be hard to get into the building. Since it is locked to the street. In addition, it is not likely there was some dramatic physical fight on the seventh floor thirty feet from the PARS door with other people in ear shot. It is way too far fetched.

    One thing about Zombie’s account. I think it was known ahead of time that the elevator in question was malfunctioning. I think there had been some problems in the past. And they ordered the repair BEFORE the thanksgiving weekend.
    Most likely they thought they had shut down this elevator. It may have even had a sign on it downstairs, not sure though. But I guarentee- there were not signs or barricades or a cone in front of that elevator door on every floor of the building. NO WAY. Therefore, it was a error of some sort that this elevator opened on the seventh floor.

    Zombie the first person to understand correctly what the police said was the scenario that they concluded based on the evidence.

  63. 63buzzsawmonkey on Dec 4, 2008 at 5:27 pm:

    #62, Anonymous: Someone should explain to you that repeatedly yelping “bigotry” to counter clearly laid out points does not prove a point. Maybe in your circles in San Francisco; not in the rest of the world.

    You are an apologist for the PARS establishment, and clearly want to protect its good name. It is odd, therefore, that you are visibly opposed to the police doing what will most readily do that–i.e., investigate the possibilities I have raised, if only to ensure that they are rightfully dismissed, rather than sweeping them under the rug, as you attempt to do with your intentional distortions of what I have said.

    Nowhere have I said that “Muslims are inclined” to do anything. I have said that Muslim religious authorities have repeatedly stated that gays should be killed–and that they have repeatedly said that the Koranic method of doing so is to hurl them from a great height. Both these statements are fact, and easily verified; try MEMRI’s excellent and extensive videos of Muslim clerics saying exactly these things.

    All that is necessary for a murder to occur is one person wishes to commit it. Thus, your babble about how many people at PARS are this, or that, or the other is meaningless. If one person there–only one–had the desire, the ability, and the opportunity to kill another, it could be done. Doesn’t mean it was; does mean it could have been–and does mean that it is not something an intelligently-run investigation would dismiss without looking into.

    No, the police are not idiots–but they can be as politically motivated, especially under pressure, as any other department of government. And the police may well not be aware that killing homosexuals from a great height is in fact a Koranic form of execution, according to present-day Muslim religious authorities. That there is no record, to my knowledge, of such a form of murder having yet been committed in the US means nothing; until a few years ago, there was no record of Islamic honor killing in the US. Now there are numerous such cases.

  64. 64Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 7:04 pm:

    buzzsaw, you are an idiot.

    I am not opposed to the police investigating anything. They should investigate as they would anywhere a death of someone who had some political or activist activity and a background of conflicts with some others to make sure there wasn’t someone who was out to harm or did harm him. This is normal.

    what I object to it all your insinuation and baseless suppositions.
    You didn’t factually lay out anything. You just made irrelevant suppositions. Apparently, Kliman could have had some enemies in the SF community. That’s what people are saying. That has nothing to do with PARS.
    Memri has nothing to do with the people in Kliman’s vicinity or with San Francisco per se. These are not “authorities” for most muslims and if there are crazy people advocating murder – this is no reason to believe that most people or even a small number of people would follow such admonitions. It defies logic. You should be embarrassed by your ignorance.
    But no matter what goes on on the other side of the world or in certain places in america where gays have been killed, this is not relevant to our situation in SF or in this situation. And that is what I was countering.

    In fact, it is people like YOU who are yelping about bigotry or some Jew hater having maybe killed him. And in doing so, by pulling so called ‘facts’ out from some extremist website across the world, makes YOU the bigot because you are lumping 4 billion muslims worldwide into some kind of uniform group with a set beliefs or motivations. It is ridiculous and irresponsible.
    I am not an “apologist” for PARS.. because frankly, there is nothing to apologize for. Since Daniel was coming there for three years, I am sure he would agree with me if he could hear this.

    I think everyone at PARS is horrified by what happen to our classmate whether we knew him or not. At my evening class yesterday, people were very disturbed at hearing this news. His picture was posted around the offices, and it was very sad.
    I personally do not know Dan, and I am sure if I had – I would not share his political views, but so what. It is totally unimportant at this moment. Only the police need concern themselves with looking at any possible suspicious issues.

    As for myself, … I could barely sleep last night because from the moment of leaving the building (taking the stairs of course)… I could not get the images out of my mind. And for hours I felt so afraid thinking of his fear and pain in such a moment of this accident and how alone he was at this moment of losing his life. It is utterly frightening and tragic and anyone would feel this disturbed if you actually know this place and the building and the elevator in question and the fact that he was like anyone else coming to class at night and basically one of us. It is very very sad and hard to fathom.

  65. 65Skip Smith on Dec 4, 2008 at 7:16 pm:

    While we’re on the topic of paranoid delusions, can anyone decipher what post #24 is trying to say, and what it has to do with me?

  66. 66Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 7:20 pm:

    exactly in what way the “police politically motivated”…????

  67. 67buzzsawmonkey on Dec 4, 2008 at 7:31 pm:

    #64 Anonymous: You are not only reflexively abusive–the surest sign of someone who knows he is espousing a bankrupt position–you are displaying obvious extremism and projecting it onto me, without the slightest basis for doing so. Let us look at what you say:

    what I object to it all your insinuation and baseless suppositions.
    You didn’t factually lay out anything. You just made irrelevant suppositions. Apparently, Kliman could have had some enemies in the SF community. That’s what people are saying. That has nothing to do with PARS.

    Whether or not Kliman had enemies in SF may have had “nothing to do wit PARS”–but he died in PARS’s building, having gone there for a (cancelled) class. There is, therefore, at least that connection. Is there a connection other than this coincidence of location? Possibly; possibly not. Only an incompetent investigator would not look into it.

    Memri has nothing to do with the people in Kliman’s vicinity or with San Francisco per se. These are not “authorities” for most muslims and if there are crazy people advocating murder – this is no reason to believe that most people or even a small number of people would follow such admonitions. It defies logic. You should be embarrassed by your ignorance.

    Your yapping use of words like “ignorance” and “idiot,” tedious several posts ago, is never more so than here, where you appear to be intentionally faking stupidity. MEMRI records and translates Middle Eastern TV programs. They don’t have to be “authorities,” whatever you mean by that; they let the Muslim world speak for itself. And what that world says is, “kill homosexuals.” And one of the ways its religious authorities counsel this be done is to hurl them from a great height. This is fact–something which you have never denied, but have been laboring mightily to obscure.

    But no matter what goes on on the other side of the world or in certain places in america where gays have been killed, this is not relevant to our situation in SF or in this situation. And that is what I was countering.

    Countering how? San Francisco is not a Magic Kingdom; despite its large gay population, there are gay-bashings there, and even murders. Is San Francisco magically immune from a gay person being murdered there? No. A Jew? No. A Jew who was a vocal and well-known advocate for Israel in a town where there are many, many rabidly anti-Israel “activists?” No. Not in the least. Nor is San Francisco immune from having a jihadi murderer go on a killing spree; it’s already had one. So there is no reason to say that Kliman, if killed, “could not have been” killed on any or all these counts.

    In fact, it is people like YOU who are yelping about bigotry or some Jew hater having maybe killed him. And in doing so, by pulling so called ‘facts’ out from some extremist website across the world, makes YOU the bigot because you are lumping 4 billion muslims worldwide into some kind of uniform group with a set beliefs or motivations. It is ridiculous and irresponsible.
    I am not an “apologist” for PARS.. because frankly, there is nothing to apologize for.

    Again–I have quoted no “extremists”–unless you consider the mainstream Muslim clerics whom I have referred to, and who routinely advocate a) murdering gays, and b) doing so from a great height, to be extremists. I have merely pointed out that though Kliman’s death can perhaps be explained as a tragic accident, there are certain features of it which, looking at the total picture, suggest that he also could have been murdered, and that if so there could well be an Islamic angle to it. One certainly hopes not–but hope, which is what your mouth is running on, is a pretty thin fuel.

  68. 68Skip Smith on Dec 4, 2008 at 8:04 pm:

    Speaking of gay, why don’t the two of you get a room?

  69. 69Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 8:23 pm:

    Don’t try to pass off Memri as mainstream. That is completely misleading and you should know that. Most arabs I know, mostly on this side of the world make fun of the stuff on Memri. I think Memri is stupid and dangerous. But so what?
    I reject your even bringing this up as somehow representative of anything mainstream in the USA.

    I am sorry, but I simply disagree with you, and I think it is severely paranoid to act as though there is no difference between Pakistan or Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia verses San Francisco in terms of the plausibility of such actions against one man. I think you are terrifically distorted in your thinking to imply it.

    i am reflexively revolted by your line of reasoning. how’s that. that’s as diplomatic as I can be about it.

    you said :”If one person there–only one–had the desire, the ability, and the opportunity to kill another, it could be done. Doesn’t mean it was; does mean it could have been–and does mean that it is not something an intelligently-run investigation would dismiss without looking into.”

    And I clarified that the police should thoroughly investigate a death , any bizarre death, especially one of someone that people are saying had some history of making potential enemies.
    what I reject, again is the credibility you are giving in statements like the above- to the idea of a murder based on ZERO evidence or even a reasonable suspicion in terms of the people who were there that night at PARS.
    BECAUSE, actually, there is no evidence at ALL of any desire, ability, or opportunity, as all the ACTUAL facts indicate.
    I mean I suppose there is alway some remote minute chance of many things. A angry enemy, figured out a way to get through a locked door at the front of the building… took an elevator upstairs… and fifteen yards from the open Par offices… pried open an elevator and got it open such that when Dan emerged, the assailant jumped on him unexpectedly and threw him down a stair well.
    how plausible does this sound.
    Statistically speaking, about one in fifteen students at PARS are males. And that comes out to about one guy per class or less. Everyone is a female basically. So if even five students showed up that night to study or by mistake or to talk to the instructor (who is friendly with Dan)…in all likelihood, all of them were female. One of them might have been a raging islamic maniac psychopath, i suppose, even though the majority of student are female, about twenty five, or about 55.
    In your world, killing people seems very easy.
    In my world, it requires being in a military or… being psychotic, or being absolutely full of revengeful hate and anger.
    Usually, these things are not hidden characteristics.

    You do distort things.
    Case in point: in your last comment … ” a Pars building”..??? where do you get this crap.?? really.
    Pars occupies exactly one office suite with three tiny classrooms, two closet size offices and a kitchenette! on an entire floor of similar offices rented by other business or organizations, in a giant building that has at least ten plus floors.
    You just make stuff up as you go along…with no compunction at all. And I think that is the sign of someone grasping at straws.

    Let me indicate another ‘fact’ that might help you visualize the situation better, or why don’t you visit the PARS office and you will see for yourself. It is tiny. There are only about forty or fifty students taking classes OVERALL at any given period. It is a very very small school. There are two main instructors and three back ups. This is not some environment with secret lunatics hiding in the background.
    It is not an Islamic school. And most of the people teaching and attending are not muslims, even, never mind crazy.
    So this is why, in addition to being very unlikely in terms of any physical possibility, the idea that someone vicious enough to kill Dan Kliman was in an opportunity to do so… is so incredibly “REMOTE” as the police suggested.
    Should they still interview everybody and anybody. Of course. It is the only competent thing to do under the circumstances.
    but please don’t act like all these fantasies of foul play are really reasonable and warranted by anything to do with PARS or the environment he was in.

  70. 70Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 8:24 pm:

    Dear Skip, that wouldn’t really be very “GAY” , since I am a girl. And our friend with the great detective skills… seemed to be flying by his assumptions that I am he…. just as he has done with everything else about the story.

  71. 71Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 8:27 pm:

    oh, and one last “fact’ in our mystery scenario… a person from outside would have to walk right in front of a surveilance camera in the lobby of the building both on their way in and their way out…. once they managed to crack the code of the door system in order to break in.

  72. 72buzzsawmonkey on Dec 4, 2008 at 9:38 pm:

    #69 Anonymous: Keep ranting, my friend. You are looking more and more unhinged with each subsequent post; more and more like someone who denies facts which are inconvenient to his worldview without any basis for such denial; and more and more like an apologist for Muslim terrorism trying desperately to conceal that fact. You say:

    Don’t try to pass off Memri as mainstream. That is completely misleading and you should know that. Most arabs I know, mostly on this side of the world make fun of the stuff on Memri. I think Memri is stupid and dangerous. But so what?
    I reject your even bringing this up as somehow representative of anything mainstream in the USA.

    I am sorry, but I simply disagree with you, and I think it is severely paranoid to act as though there is no difference between Pakistan or Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia verses San Francisco in terms of the plausibility of such actions against one man. I think you are terrifically distorted in your thinking to imply it.

    i am reflexively revolted by your line of reasoning. how’s that. that’s as diplomatic as I can be about it.

    The above shuttles wildly between the factually incorrect and the merely demented. You still cling to–no, make that “assert without foundation”–the risible belief that San Francisco is a Magic Kingdom, somehow immune from jihadi violence–when the evidence is all to the contrary. You have had one example of jihadi violence that even the police could not entirely wink at. You have a city infested with antisemitic bigots with a propensity to violence; one need only surf some of the photoessays on this site to see them displayed in all their glory. Some of those bigots go under the name of “Queers for Palestine”–suicidal fools who for some unexplained reason are impelled to rim people who would murder them in a heartbeat.

    Watching you try to dismiss MEMRI gives us all a good laugh. Of course you think MEMRI is “stupid and dangerous”–it accurately reports the murderous ideology of modern-day Islam. Babbling about whether or not MEMRI is “mainstream” is a cheap red herring; the issue is, are they accurate? And the answer, as you well know, is “yes.” The “Arabs you know”–whoever they may be–may “make fun of” the stuff on MEMRI, but you, most tellingly, do not say on what basis they are “making fun.” Are they laughing at the revolting views expressed by the respected Muslim religious leaders whose ravings MEMRI translates–or are they merely sneering at the “evil Zionist plot” of MEMRI having accurately exposed these ravings? You do not say–though your own ravings suggest that you are “reflexively revolted” by the fact that the murderous anti-gay ideology of the Islamists, and its cancerous prevalence in the Muslim world, are clearly available for viewing by anyone who cares to do so.

  73. 73average_guy on Dec 4, 2008 at 9:42 pm:

    It is not a complicated matter to breach a security code. In a building that large there must be lots of users and many ways to obtain the code or codes.

  74. 74buzzsawmonkey on Dec 4, 2008 at 9:46 pm:

    #71 Anonymous: I see you’re clinging now to a “person from outside” scenario far more whole-cloth than anything I have suggested.

    Frankly, the nature of your posts, and your increasingly frenzied efforts to direct inquiry anywhere except the establishment that Kliman was visiting, the people connected with that establishment, and the ideology that it is reasonable to assume at least some of those people hold, would suggest that it is long past time you were hauled in for extensive questioning.

  75. 75Anonymous on Dec 4, 2008 at 9:59 pm:

    According to our source there are four billion Muslims in the world and MEMRI is stupid and dangerous. Well, if a Web site like MEMRI is stupid and dangerous, what would Daniel Kliman be?

  76. 76Skip Smith on Dec 4, 2008 at 10:02 pm:

    #74, post #71 is actually saying a person from outside is unlikely.

  77. 77Ken on Dec 4, 2008 at 10:06 pm:

    “they let the Muslim world speak for itself. And what that world says is, ‘kill homosexuals’”

    Leviticus 20:30
    KJV: (King James Version): “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.”

    Maybe it was a Christian…

  78. 78zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 10:27 pm:

    #64 Anonymous

    Memri has nothing to do with the people in Kliman’s vicinity or with San Francisco per se. These are not “authorities” for most muslims and if there are crazy people advocating murder – this is no reason to believe that most people or even a small number of people would follow such admonitions. … But no matter what goes on on the other side of the world or in certain places in america where gays have been killed, this is not relevant to our situation in SF or in this situation.

    #69 Anonymous

    I think it is severely paranoid to act as though there is no difference between Pakistan or Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia verses San Francisco in terms of the plausibility of such actions against one man.

    Anonymous, have you seen what it’s like out there on the front lines in San Francisco? What Dan faced every month? There are indeed hundreds of people (at least) in this city who openly support Hamas and Hezbollah and (formerly) Sheik Yassin and the Muslim Brotherhood and so on. If not, you can get a glimpse of what it’s like at S.F. Israel/Palestine conflicts in some of my reports, such as:
    Protest at the Israeli Consulate
    Bus 19 Anti-Terrorism rally
    Solidarity With Israel Rally
    …among many others. Scroll through those reports, watch the videos, read the transcriptions. Dan faced palpable visceral hate from Islamic extremists HERE in San Francisco, not on the other side of the world. And Dan was among their most visible and well-known targets of hatred. There are indeed people in San Francisco who do pay attention to the sermons and conspiracy theories of clerics and “experts” of the type shown on Middle Eastern TV, and subsequently subtitled on MEMRI. Scroll to the bottom of this report of an event I’m sure Dan attended and watch the video and read the transcription of the kinds of things that get said at these rallies, here in San Francisco. I’ll paste it in here for easy reading:

    Palestinian spokesman: No matter what kind of lies that you say, we know the Jews own the media, the Jews own Hollywood, the Jews own everything! The CEOs of all the major companies. Look at the House of Representatives! Look at the Congress! They’re all Jews; their Zionism have agendas, and their agendas are to take over the world. They have America fighting their army. They instigate all this BULLSHIT that has millions and millions of Muslims and Arabs killed. That’s all it is. And they sit there and they lie — talk about they are victims of terrorism? They are not terrorism. If you look up terrorism, it should be Israel. They are the biggest terrorists. On the one hand you cry every day about your Holocaust, you cry about Hitler, and you do the same things if not worse to what Hitler did. You guys are modern-day Nazis. You are modern-day Hitler-followers. That’s all you are! You cry about Hitler. You get millions and millions of dollars from the German companies, from countries, you guys still receive compensation. What about Palestinians? What about all the land that you confiscated? You think that you’re going to get it without a cost? There’s a price to occupation. That bus is a price to occupation. Every time that a martyr goes out and does a mission, it’s a price of occupation. And you will pay, and you have just seen the beginning of it.

    This was said in San Francisco, and was just a typical example of the stuff Dan faced and the people Dan confronted every single month, often several times a month. Are you trying to tell me people like that aren’t capable of doing something drastic? In other videos on my site, they chant about wanting to be suicide bombers and martyrs. And these people knew Dan by name. He was totally out in the open, facing them down.

    So, I’m not saying that any of this has anything to do with PARS (about which I know almost nothing), but only to counter your claim that extremism doesn’t really exist in San Francisco, and that the messages spewed regularly on Arab television in the Middle East (and subsequently rebroadcast on MEMRI) are irrelevant to our situation here. I think they are relevant, because I’ve seen it with my own eyes. Dan even once told me in an email that one of the several reasons he was even taking Arabic in the first place was so that he could translate the anti-Semitic and Islamic extremist speech at these rallies (which he did for me on several occasions).

    I’ll take your word for it that no one at PARS thinks like the SF anti-Israel protesters. Granted. But it is not beyond the realm of possibility that someone at PARS knows someone who knows someone who had a grudge against Dan for his anti-Palestinian activism. And that perhaps even totally unbenownst to the original person, a plot was hatched by non-PARS-related people who found out when and where Dan was scheduled to be. Do I think this is unlikely to be true? Yes. But it is within the realm of possibility, and so on this count I’ll have to agree with buzzsawmonkey that the possibility of Dan being killed for religio-political reasons should at least be considered in the investigation.

  79. 79zombie on Dec 4, 2008 at 10:55 pm:

    #77 Ken: “Maybe it was a Christian…”
    That same quote from Leviticus is in the Torah too, so it just as easily could be a Jew…

    But seriously, Dan never got into confrontations with Christians, so it is extremely unlikely that they would target him, since he was probably unknown to them (except perhaps as an ally in supporting Israel, as most Christians do).

    San Francisco is (supposedly) about 20% – 25% gay, and Dan was probably the least likely gay man in SF to be targetted for putative gay-bashing by Christians; most of the other politically active gays here are overtly and strongly anti-Christian. Of the hundreds of thousands of flamboyant gay men in SF, why choose one of the only ones to have an identifiably “conservative” foreign policy stance?

    And the idea of, say, a rabbi killing Dan, an observant orthodox Jew, just because he was also gay, is patently absurd.

    I know your comment was meant to be flippant or a joke, but it unintentionally reveals the fact, out of a process of elimination, that if (a big IF) Dan’s death was not accidental and was actually a homicide with a religio-political-sexual dimension, it was far more likely to involve Islam than Christianity or Judaism.

  80. 80Ken on Dec 4, 2008 at 11:54 pm:

    “know your comment was meant to be flippant or a joke”

    I certainly don’t mean to be flippant or joking in a situation of this gravity, that is: the death of a person who, by all accounts, was a decent individual with enough integrity to actually go out of his way to learn the language of the people who heaped such hatred on him. I never knew him (or even heard his name before reading this article), but the fact that he was described as “pro-Israel, but not anti-Arab” is enough for me to have a good impression of him. I’ve always been a “two states” moderate concerning this issue, though that may be a little naive.

    I was just pointing out that it’s stupid to conclude he was murdered by Muslims just because the Koran (supposedly? I’ve never read it) says to kill gays. So does the Bible and, as you pointed out, so does Jewish scripture. I know it’s difficult to think clearly when something as tragic as this happens, but let’s look at the facts. Your breakdown in comment 58 seems far, far more plausible than Buzzsawmonkey’s paranoid implications.

  81. 81Anonymous on Dec 5, 2008 at 12:25 am:

    buzzsaw, i think it is you who is “unhinged” not me. I am hardly in a frenzy. I just happen to completely disagree with you and I think you are making broad brush offensive generalizations. Period. Nothing frenzied about that.

    I came on here to offer a few details about the building and the situation as it was last week when Dan originally went missing. That’s it. I didn’t intend to get in a discussion of Memri or anything like that. If fact, I doubt that more than three people total at PARS would even know what Memri is.
    Yes, i do consider Memri and the clerics seen ofter their to be extreme and not speaking for islam worldwide and certainly not in the United States.
    I have no idea why anyone is assuming that there are even muslims at PARS. (There is only one person identified as muslim obviously, because she wears a hijab. But I would have a hard time imagining her slapping someone, never mind throwing them into an elevator shaft.)
    That is not what learning arabic is about for high percentage of people. INCLUDING DAN! what do you know.
    The demand for arabic language instruction has grown ten fold in the last few years, and this is not by islamic people but by westerners and people who have an interest in the Middle East. PARS interest is in teaching people to travel and communicate and interact in Arabic, not to read Koran. There are other schools and programs for people looking for that.

    I am not a big fan of some of the overdone and assaulting rhetoric thrown around at “protests” or “rallies” or whatever, whether they come from one side or the other of Palestinian – Israeli disputes. I think it is totally counterproductive.
    But I would argue that no matter how visceral the anger seems coming from anyone, that is a far cry from outright one on one murdering another human being. These are not in the slightest bit equivalent.

    I don’t think one tenth of a percent of anyone going to “rallies” are capable of murdering in cold blood some other person for simple political motivations. The stats are just not there to support anther conclusion.
    What goes on in the middle east is much more complex.
    but I hate to break the news to you, that Christian Lebanese and Syrians and Iraqis and Palestinians are just as much fans of Hezbollah kicking the Israelis ass as any other so called Muslim.
    I think some of the people here are not informed about the issues and are pretending that hatred of Israel is primarily about religion. Far from it.
    there are people all across the middle east who hate Israel’s guts and are not particularly religious or/and maybe not even Muslim. Face up to that.
    And the young Palestinians that Zombie has pics of, at say Nakba Day, or whatever are american kids who are hardly religious, as Zombie noted in his captions. This is political, not religious, and the young people may be radically in favor of challenging the Jewish State, but not necessarily anti-jewish. (Of course, there are some who do revert to outright anti-semitism and this should be challenged rightly, but STILL – this would not constitute being a murderer.

    All the nuance has gone out of your analysis and perception. I think perhaps it is just easier to be convinced that the people who were challenging activists like Dan were ‘radical islamists’ most of the time, when the truth is harder to accept because it defies stereotype. You want to stick to your hyperbole and exaggeration. You can focus on the extremes if you like but you will never convince anyone with that approach because it doesn’t match reality.

  82. 82buzzsawmonkey on Dec 5, 2008 at 6:47 am:

    #81 Anonymous: Finally, the mask slips:

    but I hate to break the news to you, that Christian Lebanese and Syrians and Iraqis and Palestinians are just as much fans of Hezbollah kicking the Israelis ass as any other so called Muslim.

    Actually, no; many of the Christian Lebanese hate both the Iran/Syrian proxy Hezbollah which has taken over their country, and the “Palestinians.” You will recall that it was Christian Lebanese who engaged in the killing of “Palestinians” at Sabra and Shatilla.

    I think some of the people here are not informed about the issues and are pretending that hatred of Israel is primarily about religion. Far from it.
    there are people all across the middle east who hate Israel’s guts and are not particularly religious or/and maybe not even Muslim. Face up to that.
    And the young Palestinians that Zombie has pics of, at say Nakba Day, or whatever are american kids who are hardly religious, as Zombie noted in his captions. This is political, not religious, and the young people may be radically in favor of challenging the Jewish State, but not necessarily anti-jewish. (Of course, there are some who do revert to outright anti-semitism and this should be challenged rightly, but STILL – this would not constitute being a murderer.

    Yes, the hatred of Israel’s existence is largely “political” in this country, as it is primarily a feature of the mostly-non-religious political Left. That hatred is the modern-day version of antisemitism, pure and simple; it is an ugly and inexcusable bigotry which constantly flops out from behind the fig leaves meant to hide it.

  83. 83buzzsawmonkey on Dec 5, 2008 at 7:11 am:

    #80 Ken: You say:

    I was just pointing out that it’s stupid to conclude he was murdered by Muslims just because the Koran (supposedly? I’ve never read it) says to kill gays. So does the Bible and, as you pointed out, so does Jewish scripture.

    First, it would be interesting to learn how you distinguish between “the Bible” and “Jewish scripture.” Sounds like you’re speaking from a solid platform of ignorance there.

    Second, the test is not what holy books say, but what their adherents do. There is no known record of any Jew killing a person, on religious grounds, for their sexual proclivities. Anywhere. Any time.

    There are multiple reports of homosexuals being executed by Islamic states for their homosexual activity (Iran and Saudi Arabia are the most blatant in this regard); of homosexuals being murdered, often after torture, by their guards while in custody in Islamic states; there is a large population of homosexual “Palestinians” in Israel, who prefer the precarious life of an illegal alien in a nation with due process which does not persecute homosexuals to the certainty of torture and death if they remain under the rule of Hamas or Fatah.

    So on the one side you have Christians and Jews whose active condemnation of homosexual behavior stops at scripture, and on the other side you have Muslim society, in which homosexual behavior can readily be a death sentence both at the hands of the state and at the hands of freelance believers.

  84. 84Anonymous on Dec 5, 2008 at 10:34 am:

    When was the last time you were in Lebanon Buzzsaw. Sorry to inform, but this is not 1982 anymore. Case in point, in the 2006 war- the Christians of Lebanon were decidedly on the side of Hezbollah. And they still are now. In addition, you can find Michael Oun shaking the hand of Assad- just last week. Lebanon is probably a bad example of anything because alliance are constantly shifting. But I think it is fair to say that the days of any group being able to be co-opted by Israel and over.
    Israel should think about that. One can keep stockpiling weapons, but the end result will continue to be the same. This is about pragmatics and reversing historical direction. A truly ‘pro-Israel’ stand meaning recognizing what is necessary. Your attitude is not pro-Israel, it is self destructive at best and suicidal at worst to Israel.

    and I also included the non-ambivalent christians of Syria, Iraq, and Jordan and Palestine. Or did you not know that they have christians there.

  85. 85buzzsawmonkey on Dec 5, 2008 at 10:51 am:

    #84 Anonymous: You said:

    and I also included the non-ambivalent christians of Syria, Iraq, and Jordan and Palestine. Or did you not know that they have christians there.

    Yes, there are still Christians in Syria, Iraq and Jordan, living dhimmified lives under the heel of sharia. Lots of the Iraqi Christians are doing their level best to get the hell out. There is, of course, no place called “Palestine”–unless you are referring to Jordan. If you are referring to those portions of the territories under the vile bondage of the people who have assumed the name “Palestinian,” the Christians there are leaving faster than the Christians in Iraq.

  86. 86Anonymous on Dec 5, 2008 at 11:23 am:

    thats funny. because Syria is a secular state actually. The sunnis of Iraq were also fleeing or have fled the same disaster. Thank Bush.
    I always think it very amusing when people who have never been to these places assume they know so much about the ‘dhimmified’ lives people are living. Actually, the christians in Syria are the most well off.

    I think I am done with this discussion. You keep dreaming your dreams and fantasies about the ME. Not everything you have to say about it is false, but sadly, you mix some truisms with loads of ignorant assertions.

  87. 87Frisco Patriot on Dec 5, 2008 at 11:24 am:

    Anonymous, I’ve had bad dreams and a terrible week thinking about the way Dan died. What an horrendous death! His last moments must have been awful. From your comments in that regard I appreciate the warmth, sincerity, and empathy of your heart. And, as I said earlier, it is not inconceivable that the “accident” script Zombie wrote (composed with an astute eye for detail from various post primarily, it seems, from sfgate.com) did occur as described.

    Yet, Anonymous, just when I’d begun to warm up you come out with the usual ill-informed third-person political screeds and a total lack of awareness of what it means to be a *conscious* Jew in San Francisco and environs.

    Tell me, have you ever lived in the ME? I have: Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey, Israel, Iran, and beyond. I personally respect and enjoy the warm of Middle Eastern societies and I have NEVER hated or disdained Muslims, although my textual investigation of Islamic reveals, in my estimation, that it is not an enlightening Teaching but one of severe inner and outer repression. But Arab people are lovely, whatever their religion or lack thereof.

    However, because I don’t look like a Jew and don’t have a Jewish name, throughout my travels I heard incredible statements straight out of Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf (a loathsome TV series based on the Protocols was recently shown in Egypt and over the whole the Arab world, Anonymous: you may want to check that out). I saw repression of women which I found mind-boggling. I saw little boys with their hands cut off because they’d stolen some trifle (Sharia law). In one instance – on the border of Iran and Turkey – I was obligated to kick an Algerian’s butt because he tried to rape a nine-year old girl rural girl. He was outraged that I’d interfered with his “right”. I heard ignorant Jew hatred everywhere. For instance, in Afghanistan I was asked (by one of the top judges in the country) if I was a Jew “because Jews get sunburned and Muslims don’t.” I heard from otherwise friendly folks how various poison deserts are disseminated through Arab lands by “zionists” to stop Muslims from multiplying. I saw framed portraits of Hitler everywhere, including prominent displays in storefront windows.

    I’m telling you this, Anonymous, because the situation is a milliion times worse now than when I lived there. I don’t need to give you web site names. You’re an intelligent woman; look at the truth without your biases interfering. Anti-Semitism is at it most hateful peak since 1938 — and its not coming because of Israel’s bullying or “genocide” (a foul lie) of the Palestinians. It is coming about because institutions throughout the Middle East (and now Europe) are disseminating the material through mosques and media funded primarily by Saudi wealth. What’s being done is a set-up for Holocaust #2, and this is what *conscious* Jews have been telling you on this site.

    Does this murderous hatred exist in San Francisco? Anonymous, it is EVERYWHERE. You simply have not allowed yourself to see or hear it. And that is why so many of us are concerned that Dan Kliman was murdered. As for Israel, I suggest you visit there yourself, see the Muslims in the Knesset, see how Muslims actually live in Israel. Can you cite one Arab country where Jews have the same rights? Please, go there: wake up to the truth and tear off the veil of lies.

  88. 88BobInSanBerdo on Dec 5, 2008 at 2:02 pm:

    “Dec. 4, 1:00pm: CFS Warrior has now posted a description of a disturbing incident that happened to Dan shortly before his death:

    Dr. Kliman shared with me that he had been to the Israeli consulate the week prior to 11/20…”

    I’m certain that the front of the Consulate has security cameras all over the place. It is unlikely, however, that anyone but Israeli security will ever see the tapes.

  89. 89Anonymous on Dec 5, 2008 at 3:09 pm:

    Patriot,
    Yes I have lived/travel in the Levant. Not to the far reaches of Afghanistan and Pakistan. Although there are lots Levantine people working the gulf, and I have heard there stories.
    I would not dispute or disagree with what you are saying about so many places. I agree that there are utter atrocities against women going on. Whether this is always under some islamic pretext, i don’t know.
    I tend to want to emphasize that it is pretext, otherwise how do we explain the millions/billions of muslims who do not engage in extreme oppression of women, or who are not anti-semitic.
    I found there to be many people who may talk bad in the abstract, but when american jews or syrian jews (who left syria) come for a visit- they are treated very well and are not under threat.
    I think the case would be different in many places – obviously, Egypt, Saudia Arabia for sure. And again, it depends on the context – are we talking about peasants or intellectuals or laborers or ….
    I don’t dispute the level of anti-semitism that you can find in the middle east. It is tragic. But I do think it should be noted that the persecution began or reached beyond normal ranges of inter-ethnic conflict (which extend to just about every group or sect in the ME)- in this century and especially after 1948. This is the point at which every horrible idea and feeling has escalated. Without judgment or saying therefore it is the fault of Zionism, which I am not saying here, it is an undeniable fact.
    Syria is a good example because I know more about it- that Jews lived among a great number of minority groups and islamic people in Syria for thousands of years, and only felt the need and pull to leave after 1967. Most left in the 1980′s when Hafez al Assad opened the door. But he actually didn’t want them to leave.

    anyhow, I agree it is a huge problem that – I have no idea how it will be changed for the better. I think it will take decades and decades and several generations. However, that cannot even begin to happen until the central conflict which is used – even if viewed only as a pretext for everything else – that of the Palestinians and Israelis- is solved at least to some internationally accepted and recognized degree. This issue is the main incitement that is thrown around to create anger and direct resentment somewhere. It is a fact that must be addressed regardless if one thinks that this phenomenon is just subterfuge.
    Personally I do not consider the actions of Israelis to be genocide. I wouldn’t use that word. But I think that they are in a position of superior power and resources and it is their responsibility to fix this problem. The Pals are not able to fix it, but it is not going to magically go away just because Israel can build a wall around itself.

    My other thing that I get annoyed about is the hypocrisy of americans, including jewish americans regarding American relations with Saudia Arabia. I mean talk about repressive to women and jew hating. The Saudis are the absolute worst of the Arab nations in this regard. At least there is an ancient history of Jews being in greater Syria extending all the way to Iran (where there is still a minority) such that there is some prior period to look to. Saudia Arabia somehow gets a free pass from America all the time, and why don’t americans (jews and non-jews) go after this fact.
    A great many of the most fanatical persons and groups come out of Saudi and migrate off around the ME spreading the worst fundamentalism. And yet our country has diplomatic and cozy relations with this kingdom. That pisses me off.

    And what I centrally reject about the way Buzzsaw was talking is his blanket condemnation of Islam. And, the assumption that simply because there is a school for learning Arabic- that it is reasonable to conclude that there are fundamentalist islamic “ideologies” present, which there are not.

    I will really truly stop now talking on these subjects, as I didn’t not intend initially to take this thread so far away from the subject of what happened to Dan Kliman.
    I truly hope to god that the police and special task force or the FBI if needed does investigate this to the hilt. Because IF there is, in fact, no wrong doing on anyone’s part but it was a tragic accident, I want there to be no one who continues to insist that something was ignored or neglected and that this was a cover up of some sort.
    Also, I would hate for this incident to be used unnecessarily to fuel even more anger and conflict in our community than is already present.
    I really really hope that no one deliberately harmed Dan Kliman because it would be even more upsetting than it is already and adding disillusionment into the mix.
    I continue to think about what happened to Dan because no matter what the cause- it is a reminder of our vulnerability to both human error or malice- whichever the case maybe- and to chance.

  90. 90Andrew Teitel on Dec 5, 2008 at 3:22 pm:

    I was in Israel with Dan in the summer of 2005 on a gay mission and am very saddened to hear of his untimely death

  91. 91Anonymous on Dec 5, 2008 at 3:24 pm:

    He was my doctor in Alameda. I am very sad to know this. I actually just can’t even believe it.

  92. 92Rob Ennals on Dec 5, 2008 at 4:42 pm:

    We’ve created a Facebook group that friends of Dan can use to share their photos, memories, and details of events:

    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=36707179665

  93. 93zombie on Dec 5, 2008 at 5:49 pm:

    #92 Rob Ennals:

    I’ve now added a link to the Facebook group as an update at the top of page. Thanks for posting it.

  94. 94Frisco Patriot on Dec 5, 2008 at 6:48 pm:

    Anonymous;

    I’m deeply impressed by the sensitivity of your last note. You’re incisive and fair minded. We disagree — as can only be expected — on a few issues (Israel needing to be the one to *solve” because the Pals can’t, and one or two other matters) but are in accord about American hypocrisy re Saudi Arabia. Let me assure you that it doesn’t extend into the Jewish community. We’re cognizant of who they are and their intentions. However, the True American Elite is another matter. I suggest you read THE SECRET WAR AGAINST THE JEWS and WHILE SIX MILLION DIED. Your perspective will broaden. I’m referring, of course, to the oil companies and the global corporate elite. They are about one thing only, and we know the color of that thing, don’t we? As for Jew hatred not being endemic among the Muslim masses, that was my experience at the time as well. Yes, it is certainly different now, but I had amazing experiences over there which transcended all prejudice by a million miles. Far be it from me to declare all Muslims anti-Semites or woman abusers – although it would be helpful if moderate Muslims made their views more widely known, and if they even spoke up at all (I know there is considerable risk) … Without going into detail (which I’ll be glad to do, Anonymous, if Fate deigns we meet) I am technically a Muslim with a Muslim name,although a 100% born Jew, and there is a certain Muslim-born man way yonder with a Jewish name because of certain experiences we both shared, and I don’t mean erotic interludes or romance of any sort. This happened because helping another person overcome great danger transcends all the limiting categories of dogma and belief. Truth is non-denominational and forever illuminated by helping others and authentic meditation. That’s been my life-expanding experience in this world so far. Truth – self realized TRUTH – transcends “faith based” induced doctrine no matter what the doctrine or what the faith…. As for Dan, I certainly want a thorough impartial investigation to continue until the matter is resolved … However, I’m made some inquiries and will say only that there are some who knew him well – very well indeed – who find the accident scenario to be more than plausible. Dan was not a patient man, and that’s an enormous understatement. Hence, he’s been described as “incident prone.” In this case the absence of patience – as in waiting for somebody to hear his cries, waiting for the elevator to start up again, waiting to be discovered even though it must have been damn scary – would certainly have been the intelligent and patient thing to do. Unfortunately it appears he did not ….. Have a serene, beautiful weekend, Anonymous!

  95. 95Marcus on Dec 6, 2008 at 1:17 am:

    Looks like the Jew-Rat had himself an “accident”. Just like the other Jew-Rat’s Irv Rubin and Earl Krugel.

    Dont you all be sad and shed a single tear. Danny boy is partying it up in hell with all the other Jews.

  96. 96Ken on Dec 6, 2008 at 4:01 am:

    Way to be crude, infantile, and offensive all at the same time, Marcus. Have a little shred of human decency, will you? A man is dead.

  97. 97average_guy on Dec 6, 2008 at 10:29 am:

    #77 Ken
    Leviticus 20:30
    KJV: (King James Version): “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them.”

    Maybe it was a Christian…

    Ken:

    Um…this is from Leviticus, the source of Levitical Law, which predates Christianity by over 1000 years. This is a Jewish scripture that is included in the Christian Bible, but is in fact Jewish Levitical Law.

  98. 98Rob Ennals on Dec 6, 2008 at 11:28 am:

    I hate to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but has anyone else noticed that Dan’s death coincides with the 30th anniversary of the death of Harvey Milk – another prominent gay jewish activist. Milk was killed on the 27th of November 1978.

  99. 99Ken on Dec 6, 2008 at 4:16 pm:

    “This is a Jewish scripture that is included in the Christian Bible”

    Yeah, the Old Testament is all Jewish law, I should have worded my post better.

    But you’re all missing the point: Buzzsawmonkey was trying to pin it on a Muslim simply because the Koran says to kill gays, conveniently forgetting that Jewish and Christian scriptures (if there’s even a difference) say the same thing. Why not jump to the conclusion that it was one of them instead of a Muslim? Just because, as Zombie said, it doesn’t seem likely that a Jew or Christian would have done it? Well, it didn’t seem likely that a Jew would have killed Rabin, but…

    It’s not right to conclude that it was probably a Muslim simply because it’s written in a book somewhere to kill gays. Let the cops do their work, then examine the evidence and make an educated guess.

  100. 100Frisco Patriot on Dec 6, 2008 at 4:17 pm:

    The one who posted as “Marcus” (#95) is James Stenzel, the proprietor of Jew Watch, the most genocidal anti-Semitic site on the planet.

    James Stenzel has been ill lately. Lots of troublesome physical ailments which won’t go away. He’s been seeing various doctors but they haven’t been able to help much.

  101. 101buzzsawmonkey on Dec 6, 2008 at 5:30 pm:

    #99 Ken:

    But you’re all missing the point: Buzzsawmonkey was trying to pin it on a Muslim simply because the Koran says to kill gays, conveniently forgetting that Jewish and Christian scriptures (if there’s even a difference) say the same thing. Why not jump to the conclusion that it was one of them instead of a Muslim?

    There is no instance of any mainstream Christian or Jewish group, or any prominent Christian or Jewish figure, calling for Christians or Jews to kill gays. There are no examples, to my knowledge, of any Christians or Jews who have taken it upon themselves to become private enforcers of any proscriptions against gays.

    There are numerous examples of prominent present-day Muslim religious authorities who have called for the deaths of gay people. Most of these Muslim clerics are in the Middle East, but by no means all; some are right here in the US. Some here have not themselves called for the murder of gay people, but have merely endorsed the murderous statements of their Middle Eastern co-religionists. And, of course, the Muslim nations–notably Iran and Saudi Arabia–do, in fact, execute gays for homosexual activity, as does the abomination known as the “Palestinian Authority.”

    The way these Muslim religious authorities call for execution of gays is usually by having them thrown from a great height/off a tall building. There is a remarkable resemblance between the method of Kliman’s death and these present-day Muslim religious incitements.

    That is why, if the investigating authorities determine that there is a suspicion of foul play where this death is concerned, it is appropriate to investigate a Muslim connection.

  102. 102The Last Registered Democrat on Dec 6, 2008 at 10:49 pm:

    “Which makes me wonder: Why have we heard so little from the gay community about the death of such a prominent gay activist?”

    You know why, Miss Daisy.

  103. 103Anonymous on Dec 7, 2008 at 12:56 am:

    I would like to see an actual news report or HRW report or the like of an incidence of the Palestinian Authority advocating or authorizing or committing the act of throwing a gay person off a tall building (or any building) or executing them for the fact that they are homosexual. Please show me this.

  104. 104Anonymous on Dec 7, 2008 at 1:09 am:

    TIME in partnership with CNN
    Friday, Nov. 03, 2006
    Hatred (of Gays) Unites Jerusalem’s Feuding Faiths
    By TIM MCGIRK/JERUSALEM

    In a Holy City fissured by faith, finding a consensus on anything among Jewish, Christian and Muslim clerics is a near-miraculous occurrence. Yet Jerusalem’s rabbis, priests and imams have united, however briefly, to stop the city’s Gay Pride parade.

    For some of their followers, the issue is worth spilling blood over: An unknown extremist Jewish group pasted up signs announcing a $500 “reward” for every gay man or woman killed during the parade, which is scheduled for Nov. 10. Several ultra-orthodox rabbis have vowed to mobilize more than 100,000 protesters to shut down Jerusalem on the day of the parade, and police warn that some groups plan to pelt the marchers with apples jagged with razor blades.

    Meanwhile, in a rare display of solidarity with Jewish extremists, an influential Islamic cleric is urging Muslims to stage a simultaneous protest inside the old walled city to draw away Israeli police who would otherwise be shielding the gay parade from harm. “Not only should these homosexuals be banned from holding their parade,” says one Muslim cleric, Sheikh Ibrahim Hassan, who preaches at a mosque near Damascus Gate, “but they should be punished and sent to an isolated place.” Hatred, it seems, can be a bridge to inter-faith harmony.

    Gay pride marches have, in fact, been held in Jerusalem for the past five years, prompting only grumbling among the city’s conservatives. Then, last year, an ultra-Orthodox youth waded into the crowd of revelers and slashed three people with a knife. The furor over the parade reveals a long-standing contradiction inside an Israeli culture where secular values compete with fiercely defended religious traditions. Tel Aviv prides itself on its hip, cosmopolitan nightclubs and an easygoing “life is a beach” attitude, while an hour away, in some Jerusalem neighborhoods, ultra-orthodox men still dress in the style of 17th century Poland, with long black waistcoats and beaver-skin hats. Making up one third of the Jewish residents of the Holy City, the ultra-Orthodox ride their own buses, send their kids to religious schools, and close off streets to cars on the Sabbath. Any Tel Aviv visitor wandering into these pious communities in shorts and a T-shirt on the Sabbath has always run the risk of getting clobbered by a rock. But the violence at last year’s Gay Pride parade may have been a sign that the tension between the opposite poles of Israeli identity is rising. . . .

    * Find this article at:
    * http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1554629,00.html

  105. 105Me on Dec 11, 2008 at 12:05 am:

    BuzzSawMonkey stated something that is quite strong, and it’s overstated:
    >>>Given the fact that the late Dan Kliman, in addition to being vocally and famously pro-Israel was gay, that he was in the building for an Arabic class, and that there have been numerous examples of imams and other Islamic religious authorities being recorded as saying that homosexuals should be executed by being thrown off a tall building or other great height, I would say that his death in an elevator shaft is extremely suspicious.<<<

    I was very active with PAR for several years, knew the staff well, knew many students, and attended their social events. BuzzSaws’s line quotee above is more than a hint about the people at PAR. Anonymous tries to shed light on the school, but BuzzSaw just keeps talking about how anything is possible. This and $2 will get you a cup of coffee.

    BuzzSaw uses broad generalizations, then backs them by saying it only takes one person to commit a crime. It’s too much. PAR is not a haven for extremists. It’s an adult learning school filled with people who are language geeks, Arabic descendents and their American loved ones who want to speak with their relatives/in-laws, etc. It’s hurtful to drop hints about the school. People there are already in pain from the accident.

    It would be extremely far fetched for this to have been a murder. Let’s see: we’ll get him on the elevator, pry open the doors, throw him down the shaft, leave a building that has a sign-in log and security cameras. Just doesn’t add up.

    The most interesting thing I can add that I didn’t see buried in people’s diatribes:

    **The elevators at 55 New Montgomery were frequenty in disrepair. The elevators did strange things. An elevator would be out of service for what seemed like long time periods.**

  106. 106Lynn on Dec 14, 2008 at 4:50 am:

    Buzzsaw Monkey wrote:

    “The way these Muslim religious authorities call for execution of gays is usually by having them thrown from a great height/off a tall building. There is a remarkable resemblance between the method of Kliman’s death and these present-day Muslim religious incitements.”
    ___________________________________

    The students in Dispatches Channel 4 “Undercover Mosque: The Return” can be viewed debating this precise point here starting at about 1:50:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6a-YgZgwQ8

    Also, from the first “Undercover Mosque” video I distinctly recall hearing, “Take that homosexual man and throw him off a mountain.”

  107. 107BethesdaDdog on Feb 15, 2009 at 2:09 am:

    Back in the early ’70′s, I used to live in San Franciso, did pro-Israel work in a paid capacity, and would visit the Israeli consulate frequently. One time, out of the blue, I was frisked and searched. This was after I visited numerous times and I was known to the entire full-time staff which, at that time, was small. The person doing the searching then explained that they thought I might have been someone else. I was somewhat surprised when it happened like that.

    The Consulate used to have some part-time staffers, young men who actually handled the access through the locked series of doors. I had reason to believe they were students in the Bay Area who had already received military and, perhaps, security training in the IDF. The regular staffer who handled security for the small office knew me. I had passed by his open office many times on the way to the staffer with whom I usually met. The younger fellows at the door changed frequently and I never got to know them.

    I suspect the Consulate had some reason to suspect that there might have been an unfriendly visitor, perhaps in some way related to the strange encounter with the stranger outside the Consulate who seemed to know Dan Kliman’s identity.

    That was very strange–and does seem disturbing.

    Still, when you look at some of the pictures of Mr. Kliman at demonstrations by hostile groups, it is very likely they got to know who he was. I’m sure he was very well known to many of the regulars in the anti-Israel groups around the area. It’s not totally surprising that somebody who knew him confronted him outside the consulate.

    Just the little bit of reading I’ve done, it does seem plausible that he tried to force open a door on an upper floor, tried to jump to the next landing, and fell back into the shaft.

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