San Francisco’s May Day political rally, sponsored by a variety of communist groups and labor unions, found itself drenched by some unseasonably wet weather. Only a few hundred people showed up for what was advertised as a major event. The Bolsheviks, for example, put a tent over their booth, but even with the protection from the rain, attendance was extremely sparse . The “4″ superimposed on the hammer-and-sickle is the symbol for “The Fourth International,” or the form of communism promoted by Leon Trotsky.


In order to attract a larger crowd, the event had also been billed as a pro-amnesty rally. Despite there being no real connection between International Workers’ Day (May 1) and the immigration issue, most of the attendees carried signs about amnesty, and most of the speeches and signs were in Spanish. Some groups combined the two themes, such as the pro-amnesty socialist group seen here.


And as always, the Revolutionary Communist Party tried to come up with the most attention-grabbing slogan.


Several people in the crowd carried mysterious messages about “melting the ice.” I’m not quite sure if they were advocates in favor of global warming, or if they had some other agenda in mind.


Some took a different approach and suggested we crush the ice instead.

Down with ice!


The usual socialist literature was on sale, with some stuff seemingly left over from 2004 and 2005.


And of course the usual obsession with Jews and Israel. Par for the course.

All in all, the soggiest and smallest San Francisco rally I’ve seen in years.


Berman Post has a photo gallery of a very similar May 1 event in New York — same small crowd, same weather, same focus on amnesty and communism.

SFGate has a huge gallery of Associated Press pictures of May Day rallies around the world.

158 Responses to “Communist rally fizzles in the rain”

  1. 1Joe on May 2, 2009 at 2:36 pm:

    “The usual socialist literature was on sale”

    I thought under socialism everything is supposed to be “free”!

  2. 2Perpetua on May 2, 2009 at 3:00 pm:

    For those who don’t get it, ICE refers to Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

  3. 3Anonycon on May 2, 2009 at 3:06 pm:

    Hey Zombie, I’m a little confused about your ice thing. Are you being sarcastic? If not, consider:

    U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement = ICE

    I’m pretty sure that’s what they’re referring to, given the context of the assembly.

    Love the blog, thanks for the update, zomb on!

  4. 4mattymatt on May 2, 2009 at 7:29 pm:

    Looks like a handful of these kids are being blamed for smashing store windows: http://www.ktvu.com/news/19352236/detail.html

  5. 5Starless on May 3, 2009 at 4:38 am:

    I always wonder if the people who attend these rallies realize that if the revolution they’re calling for ever does come they’ll be the first ones up against the wall.

  6. 6s.orvik on May 3, 2009 at 9:59 am:

    I’ve screwed three identifiable Socialists/Commies in my life and caught crabs from two of them. Nuff said. Watch out for Volkswagens and ancient Volvos. You’re welcome

  7. 7Fenris on May 3, 2009 at 2:47 pm:

    No kidding. The weather was terrible the past week. There was a HUGE immigrant protest in Houston last year, but nothing big this year, if anything.

    Why’s it that the 4 in the Fourth International logo reminds me so much of a sowilo rune?

  8. 8KY Federal on May 3, 2009 at 5:43 pm:

    First off,looking at the pictures from Breman,what the hell are Aztecs doing in NYC?I thought NYC was part of the Iroquois or Mohawk nations.I get the fact that it’s suppose to be a whole “Mexican pride thing”,but what if a Mohawk went to Mexico and started doing traditional dances at a Aztec temple?
    Second off,here’s the thing.Most of them claim to be Commie because they feel if they do get their revolution,they will be part of the upper .01% crust,not the other 99.09% that makes up a socialist state.But in that mind set,that is the ultimate form or elistism.Let them live two months in a real communist state.Let them speak out against a communist goverment.Force a rifle into their hands against their will and tell them to attack a heavily fortified position.Let their friends and family be cannon fadder.They will see what true communism is like.Let’s see if they will stay loyal subjects.

  9. 9Ken on May 3, 2009 at 9:58 pm:

    “Let them live two months in a real communist state.Let them speak out against a communist goverment”

    I’ve done both and I’ve yet to see what KY Federal’s “true communism” is like. Please enlighten me if you’d like, though, KY.

    Am I still a loyal subject? Sure am.

  10. 10Frank White on May 4, 2009 at 5:39 pm:

    The first thing that popped into my head when I read the title of this post was “Rain drops keep fallin’ on my head, but that doesn’t mean my eyes will soon by turnin’ red.” Mostly due to the rain and the whole “red” thing.

    As for the ICE thing, at first I was lost on that, then I read post #2 and wanted to face-palm. Of course!

  11. 11Starless on May 5, 2009 at 4:47 am:

    #9 Ken

    Are you saying you’re loyal to the CCP?

  12. 12Bakunin on May 5, 2009 at 1:23 pm:

    There’s no connection between giving Illegal WORKERS amnesty and international WORKERS day?

  13. 13Ken on May 5, 2009 at 3:06 pm:

    “Are you saying you’re loyal to the CCP?”

    I assumed the comment above mine about staying a “loyal subject” meant staying a loyal subject to the ideals of Communism. If that’s the case I certainly am still a loyal subject. If it was referring to any one particular “Communist” party or regime, then I’m a bit more ambivalent about it.

    Though I certainly see nothing wrong with the CCP leadership for the most part. Every “atrocity” they’ve been tarred-and-feathered with usually turns out to be either false, exaggerated, or similar in nature to something their accusers have done, also. I’m used to it by now.

  14. 14DangerousNate on May 6, 2009 at 8:37 am:

    #13

    Unless you look past Chairman Mao’s starving of his people just to get money for his country or Stalin’s purging of people he found disloyal, then yeah.

  15. 15Ringo the Gringo on May 6, 2009 at 1:31 pm:

  16. 16Ken on May 6, 2009 at 3:02 pm:

    “Chairman Mao…Stalin”

    Why focus on only those two? How typical. Why not Zhou Enlai? Why not Wen Jiabao? Why not Wu Yi? Why not Gorbachaev? Why not Dubchek? Why not any of the number of reformers, social democrats, or pragmatists in the Communist Movement? Why are Western non-Communists so hung up on Mao and Stalin? Why do you always paint them to be the end-all-be-all of Communism? They were merely two Communists, not all Communists, and they weren’t very good ones at that.

    And, as I said: “false, exaggerated, or similar in nature to something their accusers have done.”

    “Chairman Mao’s starving of his people”
    Exaggerated. Did you read that in Jun Chang’s book?

    “Stalin’s purging of people he found disloyal”
    Similar. Ever head of McCarthyism?

    You have no moral capital to decry either of those things.

  17. 17Dane on May 6, 2009 at 3:43 pm:

    #16 Ken:

    ““Stalin’s purging of people he found disloyal”
    Similar. Ever head of McCarthyism?

    You have no moral capital to decry either of those things.”

    Do tell, how many Americans did McCarthy’s purges kill? How many were deported to Alaska to freeze while doing hard labor for the rest of their lives? How many were resettled against their will, or starved?

    I can’t stand people who push relativism and historical revision just to appear edgy and go against the established view… hopefully that’s all you’re doing, because if you actually believe the stuff you wrote, you’re a moron.

  18. 18CattusMagnus on May 6, 2009 at 4:22 pm:

    “Why are Western non-Communists so hung up on Mao and Stalin?”

    The body count.

  19. 19Jeffrey Altman,MD on May 7, 2009 at 6:40 am:

    small, irrelevant and unimportant groups. Thanks Zombie for keeping an eye on them and keeping documentation of this phenomena. If nothing else, there is some good entertainment value.

  20. 20average_guy on May 7, 2009 at 7:59 am:

    #19 JA, M.D.

    A few years back, a group like ACORN would have seemed small and irrelevant.

  21. 21Bakunin on May 7, 2009 at 8:01 am:

    “Why focus on only those two”

    Because, Stalin, Mao, and all the other dictators like Hoxa, Ceauşescu, Castro, etc are the natural out comes of Marxist thought, not mild social democrats and other liberals.

  22. 22Tony on May 7, 2009 at 10:55 am:

    Wow Ken your argument is indeed a weak one, first of all you ask the question “why foucus on these two”

    Well as far as Stalin is concerned, he was the one who truly brought communism wholesale to the former USSR. He was in charge of the USSR during WW2 and put in place the apperatus in which communism held its people in check for almost 50 years.
    It was stalins policies that starved millions of people in the Ukraine, it was his ruthlessness that imprisoned and enslaved millions of people throughout his own country.He is the most prolific leader of russia because he was the one most respconicble for its conception in the former USSR. Using your logic we could say “when speaking of the founding fathers why don’t we mention president Harrison, or president Garfield.”

    the same arguement goes with MAO, and he is also responcible for killing millions of his own people.

    Since were also naming off names why not Pol Pot as well?

    the fact is Ken that communism isn’t about freedom, or equality, its about control. Its about people taking things from other people because they are jealous, and to lazy to make it on there own, its nothing more than goverment sponsered robbery.

    I guess its just easier to steal what soemone else has then to work hard and make it on your own.

  23. 23Tony on May 7, 2009 at 10:59 am:

    Further more Ken, i’d like to tell you that your ideas of communism in ameruica will never truly take root, and ultimately you are wasting your time and wasting your life, i personally find it hilarious. the people you have on your side (hard core liberals) do not like violence, and the majority cannot even think of handling a gun, and when the rubber meets the road, america is the one of the most heavily armed nations in the world (and guess which side of the political spectrum owns most of those guns). You can try to “nationalize” my property, i hope you bring more than a few of your brothers cause your gonna bleed for every penny of it.

  24. 24Ken on May 7, 2009 at 3:12 pm:

    “Do tell, how many Americans did McCarthy’s purges kill?”

    Ah, you see, there’s a fundamental difference here: Western governments would never be as crude as that. However, slandering, defaming, dehumanizing human beings, making it impossible to find work simply on the basis of purported “disloyalty” is almost as bad as anything Stalin ever did. Don’t believe me? Ask a victim of the Blacklist. I’m sure they’d agree it wasn’t much fun to be on there. When you’re unemployable and starving I’m sure you’d be able to draw parallels between your existence and that of some person suffering in a squalid labor camp somewhere. Either way, I was never a big fan of Stalin, which is why I’m a Marxist and not a Stalinist. Even Lenin recognized that Stalin should have been removed from the Party.

    “just to appear edgy”

    You need to check your self-importance there, Dane. I’m hardly interested in appearing “edgy” to you or anyone on this board. I’m hardly interested in anything anyone on this board has to say about me.

    “The body count”

    Western capitalist countries have killed far, far more than Communist countries have and yet no one seems to care. Amarta Sen said that the British man-made famine in India killed far more than Mao’s in China…and yet how come no one ever considers that a “crime against humanity” from that “morally-bankrupt philosophy” of capitalism? Hypocrisy of the highest caliber.

    “Because, Stalin, Mao, and all the other dictators like Hoxa, Ceauşescu, Castro, etc are the natural out comes of Marxist thought”

    I disagree. How about Antonio Gramsci or Karl Liebnecht? Ernst Thalman? Those were Marxists who were hardly Stalins-in-training. Also, be dialectic here, Bakunin: we can’t forget that the building of authoritarian regimes in those countries was due in no small part to the agressive manuevers, from the very start, of Western powers, particularly America and Britain. If another country was trying to overthrow me simply because I made them look bad or picked the wrong friends then, yeah, I’d probably respond the same way. So would you.

    “he was the one who truly brought communism wholesale to the former USSR”

    Are we talking about “Marxism” or “Stalinism?” I can’t see Marx having anything good to say about Stalin.

    “put in place the apperatus in which communism held its people in check for almost 50 years”

    You obviously think that Communism began and ended with Stalin. How naive.

    “He is the most prolific leader of russia because he was the one most respconicble for its conception in the former USSR.”

    Are you claiming that Stalin was more important to the founding of the USSR than Lenin or Trotsky? You’re out of your mind. Read “Ten Days that Shook the World.”

    “Since were also naming off names why not Pol Pot as well?”

    Why not Pinochet? Or Batista? the Saudi Royal family? The Shah of Iran? The British Raj in India? The Contras? Mobuto Ses Seko? The Afghani Mujahideen? Yeah, I can name a laudry-list of dictators and terrorists, too, but mine are all capital-friendly. We cancel each other out.

    “i’d like to tell you that your ideas of communism in ameruica will never truly take root”

    I don’t even live in America, you simpleton.

    “i personally find it hilarious”

    I personally find your atrocious spelling hilarious (“ameruica?” “respconicble?”), but I’m an English teacher so I have an eye for things like that.

    “the people you have on your side”

    You’re projecting your stupid, simplistic views of liberals that you don’t like onto me. I don’t even have a side, let alone an agenda. You can stop being paranoid now, Tony. The scary liberals aren’t coming to nationalize your property any time soon (cue Tony’s lengthy, paranoid rant about how the country is moving towards “socialism,” with the word “Obama” thrown in every other sentence).

    “i hope you bring more than a few of your brothers cause your gonna bleed for every penny of it”

    Thanks, man. I had a bad day yesterday…I needed a laugh.

  25. 25Tony on May 7, 2009 at 4:20 pm:

    Well im glad you had a good laugh ken, cause thats about all you will ever accomplish.

    As far as your comments about Obama go, well Obama is his own worst enemy, his plans for the auto industry and the banking system are ineffective at best, and disasterous at worst. People wanted to vote in a simpleton socialist, and thats exactly what they got. In a few more years after the economy continues to drop, the same thing will happen to obama that happen to clinton in the early 90′s.

    You try to deflect the responcibility that Stalin had on the formation of the soviet union. while he may not have been the oringinal sponser of the communistic ideals, we was undoubtly the one that brought communism in masse to the former USSR, and wether you like it or not when most people think of commusism they think of stalin.

    Communism in the past 100 years is responcible for more deaths than all the warfare across our globe in the past 300 years.

    I’m glad to see that you are a english teacher, lol, i guess i should have figured as much. I mean i guess it goes with the old saying “if you can’t do…teach” wow another so called “academic” is a communist..lol. wow you could have at least picked a college major which would be useful to the world in general I.E. applied sciences. LOL i guess you probally got a degree in liberal arts too huh lol.

    the simple fact is ken, is like i’ve said before. Communism is nothing more than goverment sponsered robbery. communism is pushed by people who are not willing to use there own Brains, hard work, and ambition to make a living. Instead you want to take what other people have.

    I’ll say that communism on paper does look appealing, however can never and will never be put into work as written, it ignores the human nature of wanting to strive to be better than what you are.

    I’ll leave it at this Ken, and maybe you can help me with this….

    name me a communist country in which it is legal to voice dissent against the state and its leadership.

    name me a communist country which doesn’t pay its own people to spy on there fellow citizens

    name me a communist country in which it is legal to own a firearm for your own personal protection.

    BTW as far as your (lol) ever so useful degree in english…you do know the first people to die historically in any communism are the so called “ivory tower” types like yourself.

    Well i guess ill just have to get my smiles in that knowing that a communistic gov’t in which you would desire for the world will never ever happen, and the most free and capitalist nation on earth is also the most powerful and influential…

    lol life is sweet.

  26. 26DangerousNate on May 7, 2009 at 6:37 pm:

    #24

    Because honestly, if that many bad apples arise from that form of government then why should we promote it? I never said capitalism was perfect, nor will (I doubt) any form of government can or will be perfect.

    And unless I’m missing something here, China is basically a mutated communist country, not purely communist as far as I know I think it’s adopted quite a few capitalist practices.

    Actually Ken, I’m curious, why did you move to China and why do you think communism is the best form of government or better than America’s or could I ask your reasoning in moving to China?

  27. 27Frank White on May 7, 2009 at 7:30 pm:

    #25:

    “I’ll say that communism on paper does look appealing, however can never and will never be put into work as written, it ignores the human nature of wanting to strive to be better than what you are.”

    I don’t even know about that Tony. Consider that Karl Marx, nor most of the “founding fathers” of communism never described how day-to-day life would actually work in a communist society. Granted, they weren’t psychics, but this whole thing leads me to believe that the classic “communism looks good on paper” is just as flawed as communism itself.

  28. 28Winston Churchill on May 7, 2009 at 9:38 pm:

    Wow Ken,

    After reading your love for Karl Marx and the phony Utopian ideals that communism promises I can’t think of how big of a SUCKER you are.

  29. 29Tony on May 7, 2009 at 9:50 pm:

    #27

    the utopian ideal of a equal society is nice, but completely and utterly hopeless, as it completely ignores basic human nature.

    humans will always strive to do one of 2 things

    1. improve themselves by education, hardwork, and ambition, which capitalism encorages.
    2. Take by force what they cannot get on there own.

  30. 30derFRED on May 8, 2009 at 3:16 am:

    #27 Tony I would say instead of taking by force: “Obtain the most for the least”.

    Zombie thanks for a great blog and fantastic essays – cheers from Australia to all friends of freedom!

  31. 31derFRED on May 8, 2009 at 3:16 am:

    oops I meant #29

  32. 32Anonymous on May 8, 2009 at 4:33 am:

    OT (but zombie is mentioned in the article):

    Little Green Flatballs: What Fritz Katz Said to Piss-Off the King of All Lizards and How He Got His Gamey Buttocks Banned Off the Little Green Footballs Blog …

    http://fritzkatz.wordpress.com/2009/05/08/48/

  33. 33Ken on May 8, 2009 at 4:23 pm:

    “when most people think of commusism they think of stalin”

    Unfortunately, that’s true. I wish it wasn’t, but it’s mostly due to Cold War-era brainwashing campaigns that were undertaken against citizens of North American and western European countries. I bet you thought that only happened in the USSR, huh? Either way, when I think of Communism I don’t think of Stalin or labor camps, I think of the Greek Partisans, the people who fought for the Spanish Republic, the Soviets who defended Leningrad against Fascism. That’s what all of you forget: Stalin and Mao were merely TWO of the billions of people whose lives were influenced by Communism…what about all the normal people who were inspired to make the lives of others better because they felt it was their duty as Socialists? George Orwell, certainly no Stalinist, called the Spanish Civil War “a fight for common decency.” Romain Rolland and Andre Gide once wrote that the Soviet people were “striving for the best future for mankind.” Norman Bethune and DK Karwatnis gave their lives to save injured people by operating on the battlefield during China’s Anti-Japanese War. Marxism didn’t just influence dictators, it also became the moral compass of hundreds of millions of people all around the world. None of you have any right to disrespect that.

    “Communism in the past 100 years is responcible for more deaths than all the warfare across our globe in the past 300 years”

    I’d love to see a source for that. While you’re at it, tell me how many people fedualism, imperialism, and fascism (all close relatives of capitalism) killed…

    “name me a communist country in which it is legal…”

    I’ve only been to one “Communist” country, namely China, and it certainly is legal to criticize the government, something I do often and hear others do on a daily basis. I’m not aware of anyone spying on anyone here. It may be different in other “Communist” countries, I don’t know as I’ve never been to any of them before. Regardless, it doesn’t happen here…and I know this first hand, so please spare me any lame article you could dig up that might say otherwise. The Western media has been anti-China for the longest time. They have no qualms with printing complete lies about China. Nowhere in China is gun ownership legal, just like in 3/4ths of the countries around the Globe.

    Is it legal to criticize the government in Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Taiwan, or Singapore? Or to own guns there?

    “the most free and capitalist nation on earth is also the most powerful and influential”

    Not for long…

    “if that many bad apples arise from that form of government then why should we promote it?”

    Communism produced hundreds of millions of selfless people and only a handful of idiot dictators.

    “China is basically a mutated communist country, not purely communist as far as I know I think it’s adopted quite a few capitalist practices”

    ‘Socialism with Chinese Characteristics” is basically the Chinese version of Lenin’s NEP. It allows a heavily regulated package of free-market practices to flourish on a limited scale in order to develop China’s economy and place it at a level on par with more developed nations. As Deng Xiaoping said, “poverty isn’t socialism.” And China wouldn’t be able to move towards socialism or support any other socialist countries without a developed society.

    “never described how day-to-day life would actually work in a communist society”

    Lenin- “State and Revolution.” Go read it.

    “I can’t think of how big of a SUCKER you are”

    ::shrug:: You’re entitled to your opinion

    “improve themselves by education, hardwork, and ambition, which capitalism encorages”

    You think communism doesn’t do the same? If not, how could the Soviet Union and China emerge as superpowers to rival America and Britain?

  34. 34Tony on May 8, 2009 at 6:09 pm:

    Wow Ken where to start on this one…hmmmmm

    Well first of all stalin himself is directly responcible for the deaths of million of his own fellow russians, through forced starvation, labour camps, and executions. How can you support a form of gov’t where the leadership can line up suspected “revolutionaries” in the streets and shoot them in the head as they did in Soviet russia.

    Your attempt at justifying the actions of Stalinist russia is like trying to say Hitler was okay cause he planned the autobahn.

    Hmm china…lo….kinda a bad example don’t you think.

    I’m sure the protestors in the tianaman (spelling) square would dissagree, as well would the various pro-democracy groups, and religous groups (falun gong) would disagree as well.

    China isn’t nearly as virulent about there communism as they were some years ago this is true, as they have begun to cater to democratic goverments to foster trade relations. Its funny that you even mention china, sicne they no longer even embrace the core ideals of communistic life (national ownership of all economic apperatus). The more of the capitalist ideals they abosrb, the more free their people become….isn’t that kinda intresting. You can try to deny it, but anyone that has watched the news for the past 15 years can see it, so they are kinda a shitty example Ken.

    the fact is Ken, that communism can never truly compete with capitalism unless they absorb many capitalist ideals and policies, and in the process move away from communism.

    Capitalism encourages growth due to the premise of the harder you work and the more you apply yourself, the more successful you will become.

    Capitalism isn’t perfect, nor will i ever claim it to be. It will never be, for the same reasons that communism in its vulgarity will never work at all….human nature. Communism attempts to force humanity to rebel against own nature, while capitalism encourages humanity to embrace it and benefit from it.

    i’ll ask yeah another few qustions Ken, first of all being, that if communism is so great and wonderful…why was the former soviet union forced to build a wall in germany to keep the population from moving out in droves. Why were Soviet citizens so limited on how and wehre they could travel in the world, i mean if communism is so great why do the party elite force people to live in the country they are in charge of?

    LOL once again Ken i don’t expect you to understand…like isaid before lol a english teacher…”if you can’t do…teach” i guess you still fall under that idea huh….Well i guess someoen that produces no real good or valued servicve cannot understand the reasons why communism can’t and won’t ever be successful

    BTW, china is only powerful because of american money, if you think China will grow in power if americas economy falls, i believe you are sadly mistaken, furthermore the soviet empire was never truly a economic powerhouse, its true that they had a powerful military, but its like your ol buddy Stalin would say “quantity has a quaility all its own”

  35. 35Tony on May 8, 2009 at 6:14 pm:

    Pardon my spelling mistakes, im going out to enjoy a nice movie and dinner with my wife and typed in a hurry….

    ummm yummy bourgeois pleasures, lol, sure beats the hell out of reading the little red book Ken

    I’d rather see a movie then attend a mandatory party meeting any day of the week!!

  36. 36Frank White on May 8, 2009 at 7:11 pm:

    #35

    “I’d rather see a movie then attend a mandatory party meeting any day of the week!!”

    Don’t you mean “mandatory party meeting in the chairman’s mini-van in a parking lot of a factory so that you can hand out pamphlets during the next shift change.”?

  37. 37Tony on May 8, 2009 at 7:19 pm:

    lol thats assuming that they have a full time job frank.

    Don’t you think its funny that these commie types have there rallies right in the middle of a work day typically….kinda says something about there work ethic doesn’t it?

    whats even funnier to me though is how so many of these college commies get there money to go to school from mommy and daddy…who made ther money how?…lol….capitalism…lol

    get a job you stinky hippies.

  38. 38Ken on May 8, 2009 at 9:14 pm:

    How quickly this kind of argument degenerates into ad hominems, mocking, and low-brow insults…

    “tianaman (spelling) square would dissagree”

    The Tiananmen Square groups were mostly Socialist and were demonstrating against what they perceived as corrupt capitalist reforms in China’s government. Orville Schell’s book “Mandate of Heaven” quotes one student leader, Feng Congde, as saying “We never wanted to destroy Socialism. We just wanted to say that corruption wasn’t good.” The Tiananmen groups also carried the Communist Youth League flag and sang “The Internationale.”

    “and religous groups (falun gong)”

    Falun Gong is a cult, the Aum Shinrkyo or Branch Davidians of China. Japan can ban Aum completely and execute its leaders and no one bats an eye…but when China does it it become a “human rights” violation. What a joke.

    “sicne they no longer even embrace the core ideals of communistic life”

    Marxist ideals enevelope practically every corner of Chinese life. Wen Jiabao said Socialism would continue in China “for at least 100 years.” Chinese students take courses in Dialectical Materialism and Marxism-Leninism and the Central Party School is one of the largest schools in the entire country. Economic reforms don’t mean a restoration of capitalism and an abandonment of Marxism. Go read Deng Xiaoping.

    Tony, for your own sake, don’t try to talk to me about China. You’ll just look stupid.

    “why was the former soviet union forced to build a wall in germany to keep the population from moving out in droves”

    Read Victor Grossman’s book “Crossing the River.” I never lived in Germany, so I have no idea.

    “Why were Soviet citizens so limited on how and wehre they could travel in the world”

    Probably for the same reason why people like Paul Robeson couldn’t travel wherever they wanted…

    “Well i guess someoen that produces no real good or valued servicve”

    Political arguments aside, are you really going to claim that teachers don’t provide a valuable service? That’s one of the most disrespectful and stupid things I’ve ever heard. Who taught you how to read? And let me tell you: you could really, really use a good English teacher. Your spelling is totally awful.

    “if you think China will grow in power if americas economy falls, i believe you are sadly mistaken”

    Hmmm, America’s been experiencing a terrible economic crisis that China has largely been immune from. Imagine that…

    “sure beats the hell out of reading the little red book Ken”

    Your outdated stereotypes of China are so funny. Do you really think the Chinese still read the Little Red Book? You plobably arso sink da chineeze tark rike diss tooo, light?

    “get a job you stinky hippies”

    I have two jobs

  39. 39Ken on May 8, 2009 at 9:24 pm:

    “I’m sure the protestors in the tianaman (spelling) square would dissagree”

    Also, Tony, FWIW, the Tiananmen Square protests originally started out as memorial services for Hu Yaobang, a COMMUNIST official. Funny how you red-baiters all jumped on Tiananmen and claimed it as your own without even knowing any of the issues behind it.

  40. 40DangerousNate on May 8, 2009 at 11:11 pm:

    The spanish civil war was, I’ll admit was it was just a massacre to let the new fascists superpowers stretch their legs to war.

    Fascism I consider to be a much closer cousin to communism than capitalism. Mostly because, in communism the government tells businesses how much to make of certain products by a certain time. And fascism is the government telling the people how to do pretty much everything.

    From what I’ve understood, socialism basically branches off in two extreme directions communism, and fascism. So I would like to hear why you consider fascism a close relative to capitalism.

  41. 41Ken on May 9, 2009 at 12:39 am:

    “So I would like to hear why you consider fascism a close relative to capitalism”

    Fascism is a phenomenon of the upper-classes, not the proletarian classes. Trotsky made it clear:

    “{Fascism} is…directed and financed by big capitalist powers.” Its “genuine basis” is the petty bourgeoisie, which is utilized by the monied-classes because “the economically powerful big bourgeoisie…represents an infintesimal minority of the nation. To enforce its domination, it must ensure a definite mutual relationship with the petty bourgeoisie.”

    So, clearly, Fascism is part of finance capital, which is controlled by the bourgeoisie (read: Capitalists) in conjuction with the pretty bourgeoisie. What’s more, the development of Fascism, as a component of Capitalism, is a crucial stage in the development of Imperialism: as Fascism is part of Capitalism and Imperialism is the “highest stage of Capitalism,” hence Lenin’s book of the same name.

    Read Trotsky’s article: “Fascism: what it is and how to fight it.”

  42. 42Tony on May 9, 2009 at 2:51 am:

    Once again Ken (great rhyme there btw) you seem to like to deflect and dance around questions.

    My oringinal question was…..

    “name me a communist country in which it is legal to voice dissent against the state and its leadership.”

    I didn’t say what they had to be protesting about per say, just that they were. In america and most Free nations of the earth, the populace has the right to protest about any and everything they want, and use the most vile and seditious language they can find (as we can see here on this very sight) without any type of violent responce from the gov’t (untill they engage in violence first).

    another question was ““Why were Soviet citizens so limited on how and where they could travel in the world”

    Your responce was a deflection to another subject (paul robeson). while any nation has some sort of border control, the soviet union had millions of border guard troops, stationed not only to control black market smuggling into the country (since the soviets could produce plenty of tanks, but couldn’t keep up with personal demands such as toothpaste and TV’s). It also vigourously kept people in the country.

    The german question you didn’t even try to answer, the simple answer was that the east germans saw how good the west germans were living under a free gov’t and wanted the same thing for themselves, and emigrated in mass droves to the west, which of course emabarressed the Soviet Gov’t so they built the berlin wall.

    futhermore you assumptions on the Chinesse economy don’t make any sense….since the bulk of the Chinesse gov’t money comes from maintaining trade deficets with western nations, namely america. You can try and deny it all day, but anyone who knows how the trade program works knows this.

    BTW i respect what teachers do, im just pointing out how its intresting how another “ivory tower” type embraces communism, especially since historically speaking you guys are the first ones to die in a communist revolution, and of course once again “those who can’t do….teach”.

    see ya later red ken

  43. 43Starless on May 9, 2009 at 4:44 am:

    C’mon, guys, using Stalin and Emperor…I mean “Chairman” Mao as prime examples of the problem with Communism is so unfair! Their eras were total aberrations and do nothing to prove that Communism’s emphasis on centralized government tends to give rise to strongman leadership and the repression of individual rights. 50+ million killed by Stalin and Mao? Lies, lies, and double lies! You guys have so been brainwashed by imperialist Capitalist propaganda!

    And McCarthyism was too the same as post-revolutionary Communist purges. Probably worse even! Being blacklisted was totally the same as being marched into a stadium, shot in the back of the head, and then your family getting billed for the bullet. Totally the same!

    Comrade Ken should be praised and rewarded by the local cadre for his bold defense of Communism and commitment to pure Marxism!

    [Yeah, that's the ticket.]

  44. 44Tony on May 9, 2009 at 8:21 am:

    well starless we can take solace in the fact that there has never been nor will there ever be a communist goverment that is successful. Ken would like to claim china, when in fact they have drifted more and more to capitalism every year.

    I mean how can a gov’t call itself communist when its people work to make goods for capitalist societies? lol that either makes china closer to a capitalist gov’t with a advanced system of economics based on supply and demand…or…

    china is our bitch

    either way i think its a win win situation for us

  45. 45Ken on May 9, 2009 at 4:12 pm:

    ***YAWN***

  46. 46Ken on May 9, 2009 at 4:15 pm:

    As if I was really expecting anyone on this blog to agree with me…

  47. 47Tony on May 9, 2009 at 5:15 pm:

    yeah your kinda barkin up the wrong tree ken. However its always fun to have a commie to kick around

  48. 48Ken on May 9, 2009 at 6:37 pm:

    “However its always fun to have a commie to kick around”

    I’m happy that I can provide at least some kind of “valuable service” to you, at least.

  49. 49Frank White on May 9, 2009 at 8:57 pm:

    Actually, I think Ken is providing a decent service. Surely he can’t be the only person that reads this blog and believes how he does – he’s just brave enough to speak. In fact, I originally found this site (several years ago) on some far-left blog. I, for one, am grateful that Ken took the time and not only explained what he believed but replied to other’s comments. It really sucks being on a site that’s always one-sided, and good to hear opposition voice that isn’t just “BUSH IS A NAYZI” and the like.

    While I don’t agree with Ken on much of what he said about his personal beliefs, I do see where he is coming from in respect to China and its history (and our western view of it). I studied Chinese and Eastern European history in college – a lot, and the right in America does have a lot of distorted views of China. However, at the same time the far-left in the US does as well, and people like Bob Avakian definitely don’t help that.

  50. 50Tony on May 10, 2009 at 7:47 am:

    Well frank i definately believe that China has a rich and vibrant culture, I do not think that china is some communist backwater. The Chinesse people have been through alot especially in the past 60 years. From the massacres these suffered during WW2 to the futher culling they recieved during the Mao govermentship.

    the more time that passes though and the more westernized they get, the more freedoms they recieve, i truly hope that in the next 20 years as they become more and more westernized, we can have a closer and closer relationship.

  51. 51Frank White on May 10, 2009 at 8:56 am:

    I agree Tony. If I may quote The Simpsons:

    Homer: “You guys are commies? Then why am I seeing rudimentary free markets?”

  52. 52Tony on May 10, 2009 at 1:03 pm:

    You know its kinda funny that we were talking about unemployment in america and its effects on the chinesse economy. Today on TV (i believe the discovery channel) they were talking about how since americans are buying less products due to tighter budgets, how many chinesse are being layed off from there jobs as well. There are entire warehouses in china being filled with goods that we are not buying.

    The chinesse economy is dependant on american spending to stay afloat, i think thats why they have been giving us loans for a while, they realize this too. If our economy turns south, so will theres.

    Here in america we have our sourses to income spread pretty far. Our economy is one based on resourses and services. we are a reasearch and development leader, so yeah we may feel ripples from different sectors of our economy, but because we have so many sourses of income we will weather the storm. Chnias primary source of income is there trade imbalance with us, and if they piss us off enough we can always move our manufactoring needs to other countries that would love the contracts I.E. Tiawan, Maylasia, South Korea, and Indonesia (many others as well).
    My larger concern is going to be when we reach peak oil production in the middle east. We can eventually move our energy economy to a nuclear or hydrogen based one….but what will happen to the middle east? they are a resouce based eocnomy, and many gov’ts in the middle east stay in moderate just because the royal families have the money to influence the people to stay quiet. what will happen to the moderate gov’ts in the middle east when they run out of oil money to bribe there people into staying docile?

  53. 53Ken on May 10, 2009 at 1:52 pm:

    I’ve been in arguments like this more times than I would bother to remember and every time I get the same thing: Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Il Sung, etc etc etc. In the eyes of non-Communists, all Communists are merely power-hungry despots with blood on their hands. True as that may be of some of the leaders, I ask again: what about the NORMAL people, the people who made up the vast, vast, vast majority of the historical Communist movements around the world? Yes, Communism can be a stepping-stone for dictators to come to power, but it can also be, as I said, a moral compass for common people. Case in point: after the Sichuan earthquake last year, one of my part-time students suddenly disappeared. He showed up in class again a few weeks later and I asked him where he was. “I was in Sichuan volunteering to help the quake victims,” he said. Hoping to start an interesting discussion about public service, I asked why he went there. He looked at me like I was a fool and said, “I’m a Communist Party member.” “So what?” I asked. He furrowed his brows: “Communists are supposed to help people, so I went.” And, while he was doing that, most of China’s “post-80′s, new money” youngsters, the ones who regard Communism as outdated, were doing nothing. Don’t any of you see the worth that Marxism has for inspiring COMMON PEOPLE to do extraordinary things to help others? Tell Hell with the dictators…what about the PEOPLE?

    “the right in America does have a lot of distorted views of China”

    This is one of the most frustrating things about being an American in China: the flagrant lies that fly around in the Western media about this country. Not to say that China doesn’t also lie about America or engage in arrogant rhetoric, but there are just too many bald-faced fabrications about China that are accepted as truth by uninformed Westerners and, frankly, it irritates me. The whole Tibet thing is just the most glaring example, the so-called “cultural genocide.” The way people are taken in by the “Free Tibet” groups is just pathetic. Compare the experience of Tibetans in China with, say, Kurds in Turkey and you’ll see a world of difference. But how many would be willing to pick up a book like “Virtual Tibet” or something by Israel Epstein, Michael Parenti, or Tom Grunfeld?

    Another thing I hate: why does every Communist have to answer for the crimes of Communist governments? I chose to become a CPUSA member because I thought it would be the best way to get in touch with normal people and try to affect some change, however small, in their lives. I didn’t join the CPUSA to defend the Wall or the Stasi or anything like that. Did you join the Democrats so you could defend their sex scandals and corporate lugubriousness? Did you join the Republicans so you could align yourself with their ties to unsavory dictators and evangelists? No, you joined them because you liked what they said and you thought it would help someone, either yourself or someone else. Same reason I joined the Communist Party.

    So, why did the Germans build the Wall? I have no idea. I wasn’t there, I don’t know the thoughts that were going through the heads of the leaders who approved it. Why wouldn’t the Soviets or East Germans let their people out? I don’t know. Neither do you, Tony, honestly. For all we know they might have actually thought it was a good thing to build that wall! But I’m not one to arrogantly talk about historical events I had no connection to, nor am I one to claim that I’m right when I’m not sure if I am or not.

    One simple fact you cannot deny: Capitalism is a system that runs on human misery. Stalinism or Maoism may also do so, but that’s why I’m not a Stalinist or Maoist, nor does it make it ok for Capitalism to do so. This reminds me of that old 1992 post-Soviet joke: Everything the government taught the people about Communism was wrong…but everything they taught the people about Capitalism was right.

    “You guys are commies? Then why am I seeing rudimentary free markets?”

    As much as I love The Simpsons, that quote doesn’t take into consideration any of the intricacies of Socialism with Chinese Characteristics, which is actually a complex amalgamation of economics and theoretics, too complex, in fact, for me to explain it to any of you with any degree of certain accuracy. That’s why I suggest you read Deng Xiaoping. As Socialism with Chinese Characteristics was his brainchild, I’m sure he’d be able to explain the whole thing much better than I would.

  54. 54Tony on May 10, 2009 at 4:28 pm:

    Well once again we can but heads toghter ken….

    communists are not the only ones that care about people Ken. AS a U.S. solider i have had friends who deployed to pakistan after the earthquake in 2005, and i had friends that deployed to east asia after the tsunami. they disributed free aid, gave free medical care, and helped people that needed help. Our military also has medical ships that travel the world and give free aid.

    There are literally hundreds of aid groups from western nations that give aid to needy people all over the globe, regardless of the gov’t they have in power. People could be from gov’ts that hate us, but we still help out.

    communists have no monopoly on caring. America spends more on foreign aid than any other nation in the world, its just because we are the most powerful nation on earth that other nations get jealous and like to downplay the good we do.

    furthermore, what is your definition of “common people” what exactly makes one person more common then the next Ken? i think a affulent person that loses everything they own is just as in need as a poor person who loses everything. I don’t know Ken, i guess i don’t understand the whole class warfare thing.

    As far as your definition of “new money youngsters” i can understand what your getting at, as alot of younger people in general can’t see beyond there own noses….but there are also may who do, im 27 and i would like to think ive done alot of good in the world.

    I guess what im saying is that for every nice commie there are, there is a nice capitialist.

    as far as the rest of the argument goes, i disagree with your view of capitialism.

    Human nature is to want more, to achive and succeed, i think it goes back to the caveman days where you did all you could to survive.

    there are and will always be people who are smarter than other people, or harder working, or more ambitious. Capitialism makes the best of human nature and encourages people to be successful by applying themselves and taking advantage of that portion of our human nature.

    There will always be a upper and a lower class, regardless of the goverment, because some people are just willing to proritize more than others and put out more of a effort.

    For example, myself i went to college for 3 years before i joined the army. I got decent grades,and i did college while in highschool. While i can’t say im rich my any means of the word, i live comfortably and im content with what i have at the moment.

    Some people i grew up with skipped school constantly, didn’t plan ahead, and just generally screwed around, and now work minimum wage jobs, they prioritze more on getting new tattoos, and buying smokes then they do on improving there own life.

    In a capitialist system, i guess im middle class and the others mentioned are lower class (economically speaking). why is this? Well i have more education, and prioritized more on making a life for myself, the others didn’t.

    It reminds me of what my dad said to me the one time i brought home a “F” when i was in middle school, he said “tony the world will always need ditch diggers, with grades like this you better get used to it” then he had me did a 3 foot deep 8 foot long ditch in the back yard, and fill it with dirt after i was done. Of course he did this to drive home a point.

    Now in a communist, or socialist system, im looked down upon because im more succesful then the guy who works at McDonalds, im expected to give them part of my paycheck to help them out, because they didn’t apply themselves.

    That in a nutshell Ken is why i don’t like communism. In a capitialist system you are rewarded for your efforts, while in a communist system you are brought down to the level of everyone else, and are shunned if you have more than the next guy.

  55. 55DangerousNate on May 10, 2009 at 6:35 pm:

    “{Fascism} is…directed and financed by big capitalist powers.” Its “genuine basis” is the petty bourgeoisie, which is utilized by the monied-classes because “the economically powerful big bourgeoisie…represents an infintesimal minority of the nation. To enforce its domination, it must ensure a definite mutual relationship with the petty bourgeoisie.”

    But why is it that the Fascist party in Germany came up pretty much from the exact same the communist party in Germany did if fascism is such a capitalist born government? Both arose from the poorer classes of Germany. Why is it that the bourgeoisie actually disliked the fascist government in Germany?

    Of course, Germany is probably the first fascist government people think of when we mention the word. In Italy where fascism also grew, the story of it’s rise could be a lot different from Germany’s, so it may just be almost non-applicable questions.

  56. 56Kun on May 10, 2009 at 7:11 pm:

    Ken, Lenin hated Trotsky and vice-versa up until 1917 when Trotsky became a Bolshevik. The only thing Trotsky did for socialism in the USSR was leading the Red Army. Ten Days that Shook the World is a good read, but it doesn’t actually explain Trotsky much beyond “he agreed with Lenin that revolution should occur while Zinoviev, etc. were against it.”

    @DangerousNate, the Nazis had both a “left-wing” and “right-wing”. The basis of Nazism (unlike Fascism which claims to be anti-capitalist and anti-socialist) is that they were the “true” socialists who fought against “Jewish socialism” (Marxism) which they claimed was a parasite on the “people” (petty-bourgeoisie and workers). Fascist and Nazi economic systems are best described by us Marxists as State Capitalist. (Go look it up)

    The “left-wing” and “right-wing” of the Nazi Party were basically divided into:
    a) the ‘socialist’ wing led by the Strasser brothers, Ernst Röhm, Joseph Göbbels and people like Walter Stennes. They took the word “Socialist” in the National Socialist German Workers’ Party seriously. Socialism existed before Marx (which is why Engels called pre-Marxian socialists utopian since their views were not based on philosophical materialism but instead were based on idealism) and they identified with a racist, nationalist-based version of it. These times flirted with maintaining stable relations with the Soviet Union and convinced many workers to support Nazism over Communism.

    This ‘left-wing’ wing got purged in 1934 during the Knight of the Long Knives. By 1935 one of the Strasser brothers was dead (the other in exile), Göbbels went in line with the ‘right-wing’, Röhm was dead, and Stennes was either in exile or never resurfaced in politics again after being expelled from the Sturmabteilung in 1931. Strasserism still lives on today in the National Bolshevik movement. (Which is pretty much just Russian nationalism and Strasserist Neo-Nazism)

    Why did this happen? Well…

    b) the ‘right-wing’ led by Adolf Hitler, Hjalmar Schacht (not really that much of a Nazi to begin with), etc. They identified more with the petty-bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie. They also supported with enthusiasm one of the 25 Points of the NSDAP: “We demand the creation and maintenance of a healthy middle class, the immediate communalizing of big department stores, and their lease at a cheap rate to small traders, and that the utmost consideration shall be shown to all small traders in the placing of State and municiple orders.”

    Since the ‘left-wing’ was threatening to these types, who were in many cases funded by the bourgeoisie (such as businessman Fritz Thyssen), and the Sturmabteilung (SA) threatened their hold on power (since it was basically the working class branch of the Nazis), the ‘left-wing’ was purged by the ‘right-wing’.

    In either case, the victory of either side would have resulted in State Capitalism, which the ‘right-wing’ clearly put into practice.

    Read: http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/understanding_fascism.htm

  57. 57Starless on May 11, 2009 at 4:48 am:

    #44 Tony

    The reason Communist gov’ts have had difficulty taking hold completely is their failure to embrace pure Marxist ideology. NORMAL people, the proletariat, intuitively understand the superiority of Marxism, but too often gov’ts have fallen into the trap of compromising Marx’s teachings, making their actions completely irrelevant. Why all the NORMAL people of Europe lost sight of that and abandoned Communism, I will never understand, though I assume the propagandist lies of bourgeois Capitalists had a lot to do with it. They contaminated pure Marxist thought with the Siren Song of individual riches when in fact all they were selling was oppression!

    I was very happy to read that comrade Ken is Marxist instead of a Maoist or Stalinist. Adhering to Marxism allows him to properly criticize any real world deviation from pure ideology and remind NORMAL people of the humanism that can only be found in Communism.

  58. 58Ken on May 11, 2009 at 11:51 pm:

    I had a lengthy reply that got eaten in the posting process. I had a long day and I’m too tired to write it all again. I’ll re-post tomorrow.

  59. 59Tony on May 12, 2009 at 8:45 pm:

    See internet doesn’t like commies either.

  60. 60Fenris on May 13, 2009 at 9:41 am:

    58: That’s why I ctrl-C long replies before hitting submit.

  61. 61Adam on May 13, 2009 at 1:06 pm:

    “Western capitalist countries have killed far, far more than Communist countries have and yet no one seems to care.”
    Communism hasn’t been around for as long as the ‘Western capitalist nations.’ Give it time, it’ll definitely catch up.
    KYFederal, great comment!

  62. 62Ken on May 14, 2009 at 1:24 am:

    “communists are not the only ones that care about people Ken”

    Yeah, Tony, of course. You’ve made enough references to my “liberal arts” education and my position as an “ivory tower” intellectual (I’m actually just a serverely burned-out elementary school teacher) so I’d expect you to know that I understand common sense. Of course other things beside Communism can inspire philanthropy in people. That wasn’t my point. My point was that there is a human side to Communism that, actually, is the main reason why most people get involved with it but no one on the right or on the moderate left ever acknowledges that. In the eyes of just about everyone in North America or Western Europe, Communism is just labor camps, secret police, and hideous monuments. But Communism also inspired the common people who lived under it to undertake great services in the name of helping other people, it inspired selflessness in billions of people all over the world. What’s more, it gave people the idea of a better life to strive for. In his article “Voices of East Berlin,” published in Time in 1990, Carl Bernstein mentions that most East Germans “believe in Socialism. Still. Not the Socialism of their disgraced and discredited leaders but the Socialism they have been taught for 40 years.” That was AFTER the Wall fell down and on the eve of German reunification. Why would people like that, who had supposedly been “enslaved” by Communism, still want it if it was such a totalitarian living hell? The answer? Because, unlike you, those people had lived it and understood that there was more to Communism than the Western propaganda machine said. Non-Communists always challenge us to “go live in a Communist country and see what it’s like,” but I think it’s you people who need to discover what life in a Socialist country is really like.

    “I guess what im saying is that for every nice commie there are, there is a nice capitialist”

    Again you miss the point. It’s not that “Capitalists” themselves are bad. Actually, most “Capitalists” are probably good people who have deluded themselves into thinking that they’re actually doing good things for their fellow man. However, Capitalism itself is an immoral system. I don’t have time to explain Marx’s theory of surplus value, but to give a potted summary: Capitalists need to generate surplus value in order to keep their business afloat. The only way to do that, however, is through exploitative labor practices and alienation. This is an economic law of Capitalism. It doesn’t matter if a “good person” is running a Capitalist business because the system itself is immoral.

    “Well i have more education, and prioritized more on making a life for myself, the others didn’t”

    Your fault here lies in assuming that all people in the lower classes are there because they’re uneducated, lazy, and have trouble prioritizing. That’s hardly the case. There are plenty of people who work harder than you or I and still just barely scrape by, if even that. The notion of a “lazy good-for-nothing” who sits around leeching off of others is pure bourgeois chauvinism. I hate that garbage about “they want to take my money and give it to someone who wont work.” That is such bullshit. “Social parasitism” is a crime in China just like it was in the USSR and all over the Eastern Bloc. Taking money from someone and giving it to someone who doesn’t deserve it isn’t Socialism, it never was, and if you can find the passage from Marx, Engels, or Lenin where they describe Socialism in those terms, I’d like to see it. Socialism is “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” What you can give, you give and what you do need, you get. And if you don’t like it you can either vote with your feet or not participate in the re-distribution of wealth. But if you choose the latter then don’t expect any of the benefits that come with being a member of a Socialist society (free health care, living subsidies, free higher education, etc etc).

    “in a communist system you are brought down to the level of everyone else”

    You have a poor understanding of Communism, sorry. It’s not that the rich are brought down to the level of the poor. Remember Deng Xiaoping’s aphorism that I quoted above? “Poverty isn’t Socialism?” Actually, it’s that the lower-classes get elevated to a higher status than they would be afforded in Capitalism. And I’m not even talking about money. Adrian Foster-Carter wrote an interesting book called “A Year in Pyongyang” about his time working as a copy editor in North Korea (it’s online for free. Google it). He described all the poverty and weird political rituals, but he also mentioned that common workers and farmers are afforded a level of respect that is totally unthinkable in the West. Plumbers and ditch-diggers drag themselves to work in the West every day thinking about how much they hate it and how they’d like to be doing anything else if they could. Their counterparts in North Korea go to work feeling like kings because they feel they’re contributing to the common good and because they receive a huge amount of respect accordingly. It’s not about bringing the rich down, it’s about bringing the poor up. The rich, though, have to help. That’s the price they pay for having gotten where they are at the expense of others. I’m certainly a middle-class intellectual (and, as my wife is fond of saying, if we’d lived in China during the Cultural Revolution our family would have been the first to get it in the neck), but I acknowledge that I have a responsibility to take care of the people who have less than I do. I don’t give money to beggars on the street, but I have no problem buying a meal or some bottles of water for the guys changing the old pipes in my apartment building. Hell, one of my students got pneumonia and I paid for most of his medical expenses. His family didn’t have enough, I did, and I took care of it. Not to make myself look good, but because all my years in the Communist movement have taught me that I didn’t get the right to shed my human decency when I graduated from college or got my first “middle-class” paycheck.

    “because they didn’t apply themselves”

    You’re making a ridiculous over-generalization there by inferring that someone works at Mickey D’s only because they didn’t apply themselves. Some people have no other choice besides working in the service industry. They hardly make a decent living in a place like that, anyway.

  63. 63DangerousNate on May 14, 2009 at 10:35 am:

    “That’s the price they pay for having gotten where they are at the expense of others.”

    And there’s where I have to disagree with you Ken. You are inferring that every rich person got there because they stepped on others. And if discourage the rich, then who’s going to head research besides the government? Who’s going to invent new working techniques and ideas? Also if you discourage the people from becoming rich (and I’m not saying that you or communism is directly), then eventually people will just say, “Ah, so if I work at Mickey D’s I can make as much of a difference as the plumbers and CEOs.” It’s human laziness. I don’t really have a problem with communism/socialism, on paper I just don’t see how it could run as a government.

    I will say one thing, communism really seemed to give those people who helped in the Chernobyl incident courage the try and stop it from being any worse (giving their lives to empty out the water underneath the plant for example).

    I’m not really trying to convince you Ken to change your ideals, I just like to hear from the other side of the picture.

  64. 64Dave Surls on May 14, 2009 at 5:50 pm:

    When it comes to comies…Pinochet had the right idea.

  65. 65Dave Surls on May 14, 2009 at 11:21 pm:

    And when it comes to darkies…the KKK had the right idea.

  66. 66Ken on May 15, 2009 at 1:38 am:

    I have the feeling that #65 is probably a name jack. Not even Dave Surls could be as crude as that.

    I’ll respond to 63 later on…

  67. 67Starless on May 15, 2009 at 5:57 am:

    Yeah, Tony, you couldn’t be more wrong. Gulags, secret police, neighbors turning in neighbors for counter-revolutionary thought (assuming these imperialist Capitalist charges are even true!) mean nothing because Just Plain Folks learn how to make the best of and work within the system they’re born into. The same goes for relocating 35,000,000 people from their homes for the sake of a massive government project which may or may not work (but don’t believe the propaganda from corrupt Western engineers!) and the occasional food and water riot in the provinces, no doubt sparked by Capitalist agents provocateurs.

  68. 68zombie on May 15, 2009 at 10:55 am:

    Ken #66, yes, we’ve been having a lot of problems with nick jacking lately. If I was a competent website owner I’d be able to find a way to stop it.

  69. 69Tony on May 15, 2009 at 11:33 am:

    well ken im glad you gave me some more stuff to respond to….

    ““Voices of East Berlin,” published in Time in 1990, Carl Bernstein mentions that most East Germans “believe in Socialism. Still. Not the Socialism of their disgraced and discredited leaders but the Socialism they have been taught for 40 years.” That was AFTER the Wall fell down and on the eve of German reunification. Why would people like that, who had supposedly been “enslaved” by Communism, still want it if it was such a totalitarian living hell?”

    Well Ken, i guess my question would be to you, that if it was so good to begin with, why build the wall in the first place? I mean if sommunism worked so well, it shoulod have been the other way around right? I mean Ken Many jews who were in death camps still go back and visit, not because of some sort of nostalia (spelling) but they endured so much pain and inhuman suffing that a piece of themselves was tied there forever. Hell there are many American cubans who go to cuba to visit, but that dpoesn’t mean that they would want to stay there.

    “Capitalists need to generate surplus value in order to keep their business afloat. The only way to do that, however, is through exploitative labor practices and alienation.”

    Of course there needs to be surplus value, this money is used to expand the buisness, hire new employees, and pay for benefits. I fail to see how surplus value = exploitation. If anything it leads to more jobs, more income, and growth of a community. There are many companies in the U.S. where entires towns and cites are built around, and are happy. It’s when values goes down that people suffer. My advice to you Ken is to get out of the 1910′s and 20′s when there were deplorable working conditions, existing laws and agencies make sure that workers are taken care of. why don’t you compare how many people die in U.S. coal mines every year compared to Chinesse coal mines, and see what the %’s are compared to respitory deaths as well. Communist countries have never been known for there “care” of the working class, nor there overall health.

    “Lenin where they describe Socialism in those terms, I’d like to see it. Socialism is “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” What you can give, you give and what you do need, you get.”

    Well ken i would like to ask the question…who gets to establish those “needs” in every communistic gov’t that has existed to date, there have been no mass elections to determine who’s going to get to make those rules. It seems as well that the people who establish who needs what in a communism are usually those who live the best lol. In capitalism you get to establish what you want and what you need based on your abilites. That my friend is the core difference between communism and capitialism…..basic freedom to determine your own destiny.

    “And if you don’t like it you can either vote with your feet or not participate in the re-distribution of wealth.”

    Well, if that was true, why all the borderguards and fences? Communistic gov’t do pretty well at keeping there own people within there own borders, and also….if it was so great, why didn’t we see capitialist countries with open borders emptying into commie countries? I hate to keep bringing it up, but i think the berlin wall would be the perfect example of my argument here. The german commies were losing so many people to the west they had to box them in, and then tried to block western nations from entering there own areas within berlin to feed the people (berlin airlift ring a bell).

    As far as your arguments for PRNK..wow…idk even where to start. Living like kings? lol. Theres a reason why they call it the “hermit” kingdom Ken. the few people that make it out testify of brutal crimes againt the people, mass starvation, and lack of any kind of luxury. They constantly threaten to sell nukes to the cheapest bidder if we in the west do not provide food, and fuel aid. anyone with a keyboard and a internet connection can look up this information about the PRNK from thousands of sources (many of which sympathize with the commies).
    If PRNK is so wonderful, why do they not have a open society? why is western TV banned? no intrernet, and very little access to phones. It seems to me that any “workers paradise” would be a very open and free to move society.

    Maybe you could spend a few years living in the PRNK.
    Thats something else i have never understood, if america is soooooo horrible, why bother to live in it? We have a open emigration policy…its not that difficult to apply for a visa to live in another country, pick up your shit, and move. LOL the same spolied brats that bitch about capitalism in the west at universities are the same douches that have mommy and daddy paying for it with there “dirty” money aqquired from the endless toil of the workers…lol, what a joke. futhermore i assume you live in a “westernized” country Ken…and your a teacher…so bascially your a communist working for a capitalist gov’t (since your salary is gov’t money) doesn’t that make you kind of…idk….a sellout? i mean im not trying to hound you here Ken, but i can’t think of another word for it.

    My argument here Ken, especially on the PRNK, is that if they are such WONDERFUL places to live….

    A. why is free access to information limited?

    B. why the internal “political” police systems (I.E. the stasi, or the KGB’s interal policing dept). The only time we police our own for political beliefs here is when the said groups engage in terrorist acts (I.E. ALF, ELF, and various right wing militas)

    C. why all the safeguards enacted to keep people living in commie countries, from leaving?

  70. 70Tony on May 15, 2009 at 11:39 am:

    One more question Ken….on this wonderful website zombie has provied many many pictures of communists protesting on the streets of america, and afforded police protection to do so.

    Is there a communist country that does the same (allows pro-capitialist, or pro democracy) protests?

  71. 71Frank White on May 15, 2009 at 1:36 pm:

    Tony, Ken, Let’s be realistic here, when people refer to “democracy” in the United States they really mean “capitalism and some form of republicanism/federalism”. Democracy is too egalitarian to actually work well within capitalism (hence union busting, the labour movement, etc in the late 19th and early 20th century) – I’m not complaining, even the founding fathers (many of them) considered democracy as “rule by the rabble.”

  72. 72Frank White on May 15, 2009 at 1:46 pm:

    I forgot to also say that: Surely Ken desires democracy, but his view of democracy is more true to the word – that is worker control over the means of production. I find it ironic people view the US, UK, Canada, etc as democratic when they’re not that at all – granted they aren’t dictatorships, but just because you vote for someone doesn’t mean you are actually making the decisions. Most of the people elected are millionaires, but most Americans aren’t; and of course we could also get into the whole “two party system”, basically being a joke for nearly two identical ideologies, but that’s another post.

    I’m far more interested in anti-Liberalism and anti-Communism than Conservatism and whatever else is on the right to far right. I guess I could say I’m not smart enough to know how to make socialism and communism work, but I’m not stupid enough to believe that Barack Obama is any more socialist than the US has been for the last 70 years. And yes, state ownership over the police, roads, schools, and so forth payed for by tax dollars is socialist – how do you think the USSR (or China) payed for stuff like that?

    I went off topic here, sorry guys. My main point is that I think we should be more honest by what we mean, if you mean “democracy”, you’re likely to be referring to capitalism and republicanism, not the people controlling the entire government (to lay it out for the US citizens in here, the Senate, House, President, Supreme Court, IRS, etc run the country; you don’t – you can talk about voting all you want, but everyone in office is nearly the same as everyone else in office.)

  73. 73Ken on May 15, 2009 at 3:52 pm:

    “why build the wall in the first place?”

    You already asked me this and I already responded. The answer is: I have no idea. And, frankly, neither do you. Your guess is as good as mine and we both have little more than conjecture to back up those guesses… unless you have access to Soviet or East German government archives.

    “I fail to see how surplus value = exploitation”

    Das Kapital explains it all quite well. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain it to you. Go get a library card.

    “why don’t you compare how many people die in U.S. coal mines every year compared to Chinesse coal mines”

    Those are private coal mines, you fool. Mines where people cut corners on safety and skimp anywhere they can to save money because the owners are Capitalists! Chinese workers in state-owned mines have a drastically lower accident rate than in private mines. There’s a reason why most of those mine accidents happen in Shaanxi: because that’s where the largest non-nationalized coal mining industry is. If you knew anything about China you’d know that.

    “Living like kings?”

    Not only do you need to learn how to spell, you need to learn how to read, too. I didn’t say “living like kings,” I said they “feel like kings.” I was referring to the respect they get, not material wealth. Also, there’s no such thing as “PRNK,” it’s the “DPRK.” You honestly think the leaders of North Korea would refer to themselves as “People’s Republic of North Korea,” therefore legitimizing the existence of South Korea? You need to learn something about Asia, son.

    “If PRNK is so wonderful, why do they not have a open society? why is western TV banned? no intrernet, and very little access to phones”

    Did I say they were wonderful? I even specifically mentioned their “poverty and weird political rituals.” All I said was that they had elevated the role of common worker to something respectable and, therefore, their workers take pride in what they do, unlike Western workers who would rather be doing something else. I wont continue this conversation if you don’t even take the time to read what I write.

    “futhermore i assume you live in a ‘westernized’ country Ken…and your a teacher…so bascially your a communist working for a capitalist gov’t”

    If you’re really THAT thick, Tony, I guess I’ll just have to spell it out for you: I live in China.

    “Is there a communist country that does the same (allows pro-capitialist, or pro democracy) protests?”

    How many times do I have to tell you I’ve only been to ONE Communist country so I can’t comment on the situation in other ones? In China, yes, you can agitate for Capitalism if you want, though I’ve never seen anyone do it. Hell, the People’s Daily, the Party’s own newspaper, just published an article called “Dont Hate the Rich, Be One of Them.”

    At least DangerousNate can write out a comment with a coherent argument…

  74. 74Ken on May 15, 2009 at 4:19 pm:

    Missed your last questions:

    “A. why is free access to information limited?”

    Because, due in no small part to the disporportionately aggressive behavior enacted by Capitalist governments against any tiny little inkling of Communism anywhere in the world, Communist countries have a much more precarious security situation and need to make sure that any information that comes in doesn’t destabilize the country. Places like America or Britain are much are much stronger, richer, and more stable and, therefore, don’t have to resort to things like that except in times of national emergency. And, of course, it isn’t just Communist countries that do that. I could name quite a few but you’d just pull out your straw man again and accuse me of “deflecting.”

    “B. why the internal “political” police systems?”

    Because of the enourmous number of agents of unfriendly governments constantly trying to destroy a Communist movement wherever it arises. The armed forces can protect the citizenry from an attack by a foreign army, but an internal threat is much more dangerous. Take the Cubans, for instance. Castro was well aware that the CIA was trying to kill him and overthrow him by sending exiles to infiltrate Cuba and try to bring it down from within. Small wonder he felt paranoid and saw the need to create a police force to protect his people from that. Maybe if Western governments actually adhered to the “peaceful co-existence” they paid lip service to and abandonded the idea of overturning any Communist government anywhere in the world there wouldn’t be a need for an internal police force.

    “C. why all the safeguards enacted to keep people living in commie countries, from leaving?”

    Because those governments spend billions of dollars annually to give their people free access to socialized services like health care, university education, and housing. If you just built a house for someone, gave them a free plate of food, and had a doctor there to take care of them for free I doubt you’d want them to move away as soon as possible lest all of your work and time (and money) get wasted. Personally, I feel that if anyone wants to leave we should just let them leave. We don’t need them, anyway. Also, learn your history: Castro opened Mariel Harbor and said anyone who wanted to leave could leave. However, only 125,000 out of millions chose to leave.

  75. 75Tony on May 15, 2009 at 8:21 pm:

    Well, Ken i never claimed to be the greatest statesman, and i thank you for pointing out its the DPRK, and not the PRNK.

    As far as the rest goes, i think i may be getting to you a lil bit.

    “You already asked me this and I already responded. The answer is: I have no idea. And, frankly, neither do you.”

    Well Ken i may not be the best at typing, but i think i can explain to you why the wall was built. Quite simply, when Germany was divided after WW2, the country was divided and ruled by seperate countries while the world figured out what to do with Germany. the philosophy of the west was to rebuild there portion of Germany, and make it strong…as to advoid the same kind of resentment and contention that created the conditions for a monster like hitler to emerge to begin with. the USSR wanted to keep the Germans under a strong thumb, as they had lost so many of ther population to Hitlers armies. Berlin itself was divided into east and western zones (although berlin was deep inside the USSR goverened zome) with the western side of berlin being governed by the west. Frankly i don’t know why im explaining this to you, since its common historical knowledge…but….long story short…the west rebuilt west germany, and the USSR kept east germany under heel. As the east germans saw that the west germans were living so much better, they left east germany in droves. This of course embarrassed the USSR, and instead of trying to compete with the west, they built a wall between the two, complete with guard towers, minefields, and razorwire. they also tried barring the west from bringing goods by not allowing trains and ground transportation (including food and medicine) to western berlin, so we flew it in by the ton, resulting in the largest airlift operation in history which we call the “berlin airlift”. I personally think you know this, but don’t wanna disscuss it because you know the answer does not reflect well onto communism.

    “I fail to see how surplus value = exploitation”

    “Das Kapital explains it all quite well. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain it to you. Go get a library card.”

    Well Ken i explained to you what i was saying, and i don’t think it quite sank in, so let me repeat it…

    “If anything it leads to more jobs, more income, and growth of a community. There are many companies in the U.S. where entires towns and cites are built around, and are happy. It’s when values goes down that people suffer. My advice to you Ken is to get out of the 1910’s and 20’s when there were deplorable working conditions, existing laws and agencies make sure that workers are taken care of. why don’t you compare how many people die in U.S. coal mines every year compared to Chinesse coal mines, and see what the %’s are compared to respitory deaths as well. Communist countries have never been known for there “care” of the working class, nor there overall health.

    growth is fueled by excess production and wealth, or as we in capitialist countries call it…”capital”. more money=more growth. If you can’t figure it out..well i don’t know how else to explain it easier, maybe someone else can.

    “Those are private coal mines, you fool. Mines where people cut corners on safety and skimp anywhere they can to save money because the owners are Capitalists! Chinese workers in state-owned mines have a drastically lower accident rate than in private mines. There’s a reason why most of those mine accidents happen in Shaanxi: because that’s where the largest non-nationalized coal mining industry is. If you knew anything about China you’d know that.”

    ….this one kinda confuses me a lil bit Ken…lol…i thought china was a communist country…you know “from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs” If china is a communist country, why are there private mines running in it…furthermore..where is this “benevolent gov’t ” to supervise the health conditions?…I don’t know Ken..sounds like China is not quite the pure communism to me..sounds alot like the Chicoms are selling out, i bet those Party leaders are doing quite well from allowing private enterprise operate on there turf.

    By definition, in communism the people are supposed to own the means of production….if your right and theres alot of privately owned mines in it…idk buddy..seems awfully fishy to me.

    “Did I say they were wonderful? I even specifically mentioned their “poverty and weird political rituals.” All I said was that they had elevated the role of common worker to something respectable and, therefore, their workers take pride in what they do, unlike Western workers who would rather be doing something else. I wont continue this conversation if you don’t even take the time to read what I write.”

    Well thanks for the correction again Ken. I should have been more careful in my quotations….anyway… You say “All I said was that they had elevated the role of common worker to something respectable and, therefore, their workers take pride in what they do, unlike Western workers who would rather be doing something else.”

    No shit Ken, if you were raised in a society where you were told the leader of your nation is a living god and that your work in life should be dedicated to him (and this is what goes on) i think you would feel the same…the people are duped Ken, North Korea isn’t even truly a communism anymore, its a sick parody of a feudal system monarchy, i would think that a true communist would be ashamed that North Korea even calls itself communist. further more, as far as western workers want to all be somewhere else..well i think that if you choose a job you don’t like..that you should re-evaluate your career choice. Here in the U.S. you can do that at any time, can you do the same in china? honestly you may, but i don’t know, many Chinesse still call the lower class in that country “peasants” so please enlighten me.

    “If you’re really THAT thick, Tony, I guess I’ll just have to spell it out for you: I live in China”.

    Well Ken i didn’t ever hear you say that you lived in China, so please pardon my ignorance in not being psykic. Now whos resulting to ad hominem attacks?

    “How many times do I have to tell you I’ve only been to ONE Communist country so I can’t comment on the situation in other ones? In China, yes, you can agitate for Capitalism if you want, though I’ve never seen anyone do it. Hell, the People’s Daily, the Party’s own newspaper, just published an article called “Dont Hate the Rich, Be One of Them.”

    Well Ken i didn’t know that so i thank you once again for informing me. My guess is that since china is embracing so many other western ideas, who knows, maybe a more free press is in the works…..you can say thanks anytimes….ill accept it.

    In responce to your answers to my questions…

    1. “Because, due in no small part to the disporportionately aggressive behavior enacted by Capitalist governments against any tiny little inkling of Communism anywhere in the world, Communist countries have a much more precarious security situation and need to make sure that any information that comes in doesn’t destabilize the country. Places like America or Britain are much are much stronger, richer, and more stable and, therefore, don’t have to resort to things like that except in times of national emergency. And, of course, it isn’t just Communist countries that do that. I could name quite a few but you’d just pull out your straw man again and accuse me of “deflecting.”

    Well Ken first i would say, that if communism is so great, why can’t it compete in the arena of world ideals. americas have absolute free access to information about any political system. If Communism is so great and wonderful, why do they fear information from foreign sorces? further more, why do communist countries have such a much more “precarious security situation ” if the people love communism so much, i fail to see what you have to fear from the free exchange of information and ideals. If anything Ken i think the argument in your answer cements the validity of my oringinal question to you. I would hope it makes you think, and ask yourself why communist goverments are so scared of western ideals.

    2. I asked ” why the internal “political” police systems?”

    and you answered…”Because of the enourmous number of agents of unfriendly governments constantly trying to destroy a Communist movement wherever it arises. The armed forces can protect the citizenry from an attack by a foreign army, but an internal threat is much more dangerous. Take the Cubans, for instance. Castro was well aware that the CIA was trying to kill him and overthrow him by sending exiles to infiltrate Cuba and try to bring it down from within. Small wonder he felt paranoid and saw the need to create a police force to protect his people from that. Maybe if Western governments actually adhered to the “peaceful co-existence” they paid lip service to and abandonded the idea of overturning any Communist government anywhere in the world there wouldn’t be a need for an internal police force.”

    Well Ken thi sis a juicy one… first of all i go back to the answer i gave you in my first question. If communism is so superior..what exactly do you have to fear from “agents of unfriendly governments “. If your political system is so wonderful, your people would laugh in there face. futhermore, we have been “infiltrated” just as much as commie countries have in the past. We were the primary target of the KGB, and are still a major target of the chinese intellegence agencies. the vast majority of internet attacks on our defense agencies originate in china, as well as a number of attempts by the Chicoms to steal classified nuclear technology. Not to mention the reverse engineering of american computer technology without giving royalties to the american companies that designed them. simple google searches can verify what im talking about if you care to check. So this whole thing about saying the west pays lip service to “peaceful co-existence”..id say not to throw stones in a glass house.

    I’m getting tired so ill adress the last one quick.

    If communism was so great you wouldn’t have to worry about people leaving the country in droves if given the chance. Your countires paranoia betrays there goverments fears and the weakness of your political system, just reading the answers to your questions shows it….and i think you know it.

    the Castro situation was a bit more complicated than you think…many of those released to go to america were hardcore criminals.

    Ken im not saying our situation is perfect, we have our problems. there are alot of people that run things in both our goverments that are ethically bankrupt, and corrupt. In Short capitialsm is about the freedom to chose what to do, where to go, and how to live. Communism likes to limit all of that. Never forget as well that its american money that fuels your economy. We go into resession and buy less your gonna feel it as well.

    I appreciate the discord we have here Ken, if even half the america leftist and commies were able to have a open disscussion like we are having, we might be able to resolve some issues, but the left in my country are far less open to conversation. BTW i do appreciate teachers your job is a nessesity, however i certainly hope you let your students have a open mind about other ways of life, and not indoctrinate them from the position of influence you have over them.

    i’m not the greatest at typing so comon ken cut me some slack. lol.

  76. 76DangerousNate on May 15, 2009 at 9:31 pm:

    “why build the wall in the first place?”

    The only thing I’ve heard is that because so many people were leaving Eastern Germany (to escape it) they wanted to stem the tide of that.

    Another thought I had is, it was during the cold war so if your enemy was going to invade at least put up something to slow him down.

    Of course, we may probably never know the real reason.

  77. 77Ken on May 16, 2009 at 12:53 am:

    Ok, Tony…

    Yes, you are getting to me a little bit. Not your argument or points, though, but rather your annoying habit of asking me the same questions over and over again and ignoring my answers. What’s more, the questions you ask me are unfair questions that I can’t possibly answer. How the hell should I know why the Berlin Wall was built? You gave me a nice little European history lesson there in your first paragraph but, again, it all boils down to the fact that neither you nor I know why it was built and we both have little more than assumptions to back up our own opinions of why it was built. You can chalk that one up in your “wins” column if you want, I don’t really care. On top of all of that, we’re discussing issues that are very complex and I don’t have the patience (or, in some cases, the knowledge) to explain the why’s and how’s. The surplus value issue is a long and complicated one and I don’t feel like explaining it to you. Go read Marx instead. He could elucidate it much better than I ever could.

    “If china is a communist country, why are there private mines running in it…”

    ::sigh::

    Let me explain AGAIN: China’s guiding ideology is “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics,” which is, as I said before, a combination of Socialist ideology and economics with a small bit of highly-regulated free enterprise. These minor free markets exist to generate extra national revenue to place China on par with more developed nations. Without that China wouldn’t even be able to compete on a equal footing with any major country in the world. These minor free markets, however, must conform to China’s national labor standards and almost all of their profits are reinvested into society, not given to any CEO or company president or whatever. Read Deng Xiaoping’s article “Building Socialism with a Specifically Chinese Characteristic” from 1984. He explains everything in it. In the case of those death-trap coal mines, however, they’re skirting the law due to China’s unofficial and centuries-old system of “guanxi” (connections) where somebody who knows somebody can get around the government safety restrictions if they grease enough palms. Punishment in the case of a cave in or whatever is SEVERE and usually ends in executions for all of the mine owners and leaders involved. As it damn well should.

    “sounds like China is not quite the pure communism to me”

    Of course not. Everyone knows that Marxism has to be adapted to a country’s specific national and historical conditions, that’s part of Dialectics. But if China can allow a minor Capitalist market to grow within its borders and then use the money generated from those markets to fund health care programs, education, and housing, all the while reinforcing Marxists ideals and morality and using Communist Party oversight to prevent those Capitalist markets from exploiting their workers, then I fail to see the harm. I’m a Marxist-Leninist but I’m willing to admit: 21st century Chinese know what’s better for China than Marx or Lenin did. And Marx and Lenin were not always right.

    “well i think that if you choose a job you don’t like..that you should re-evaluate your career choice”

    Jesus Christ…are you really that out of touch that you think everyone chooses their job? I should think it common knowledge by now that most people don’t have the luxury of choosing their job as you or I may have, we college-educated people. The vast majority of people simply take whatever they can get because they have no other choice and that puts them in a prime position to be exploited by their employers…because what else are you going to do? Quit and let your kids starve? Your prime fault here, Tony, lies in thinking that most people of the “lower classes” are free to choose their vocation. It’s not that way at all, especially not in the current economic situation.

    “Well Ken i didn’t ever hear you say that you lived in China, so please pardon my ignorance in not being psykic. Now whos resulting to ad hominem attacks?”

    Someone, I think it was DangerousNate, even asked me above why I moved to China. Do you not read the other comments in this post? Regardless, you should never assume something about someone. Jumping to conclusions makes people look stupid.

    “My guess is that since china is embracing so many other western ideas, who knows, maybe a more free press is in the works…”

    Since when is a free press, or a “free” anything, exclusively a “Western” ideal? Also, you’re mistaken here: China isn’t embracing “Western ideals” (read: bourgeois liberalism). It is firmly, as it always has been, in the Socialist camp and probably always will be. I mentioned Wen Jiabao’s quote about Socialism continuing for 100 years earlier, but you ignored it and compared him, the second-in-command in China’s power structure, to some D-List American president like Garfield or Taft.

    “why do communist countries have such a much more ‘precarious security situation’”

    Because Capitalist countries have committed themselves to destroying any Communist country or movement that pops up anywhere: Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Chile, Grenada, and on and on and on. It used to be called the “Domino Theory.” Again: I wont continue this conversation if you keep going in circles. Don’t waste my time, kid. I’m a busy man.

    “If communism is so superior..what exactly do you have to fear from ‘agents of unfriendly governments’”

    Gee, i dunno…death, terrorism, a return to exploitation. Don’t you get it, Tony? These aren’t lobbyists coming over to convince people why their country or system is bad. These are people coming to subvert a legit political system and force its people to toil for big business. Allende’s party was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED. It got overthrown, at the expense of many lives, so America could feel more secure…and you have the gall to ask me what people have to fear from “unfriendly governments.”

    “If your political system is so wonderful…”

    Communism isn’t perfect or wonderful and I’ve never claimed it was. Don’t put your words in my mouth.

    “In Short capitialsm is about the freedom to chose what to do, where to go, and how to live”

    What freedom does a 45 year-old woman with no pension, no health insurance, who pays rent every month, and has 4 kids, and works 2 jobs, have? You’re thinking of things from your privileged position in American society. Don’t project your good fortune on to others because that’s largely inaccurate.

    “but the left in my country are far less open to conversation”

    If you had the chance to take to them as frequently and to as great a length as you have been with me, I think you might have your eyes opened.

  78. 78Tony on May 16, 2009 at 6:03 am:

    Alrighty, this is will probally be the last post i direct towards you ken, so here we go.

    Yes Ken some of my questions have been repeated, this in some ways was intentional. I wanted you to look at some of your answers and think about them, some of them are a bit counterdictory. Not only that, but many of the points i wanted to drive home were in your answers, you just either didn’t realize it, or are so red you don’t care, perhaps i can touch upon a few.

    “You gave me a nice little European history lesson there in your first paragraph but, again, it all boils down to the fact that neither you nor I know why it was built and we both have little more than assumptions to back up our own opinions of why it was built.”

    Ken if you can’t figure out how flimsy the communist system is, that they resorted to building a wall to effectively enslave people on there side of the border, instead of trying to provide a better life that would encorage people to stay, im not going to drive that one home anymore. Maybe ou should try to look at the deeper meaning here, and yes i think i know why the wall was built because it is a simple matter of history.

    “These minor free markets exist to generate extra national revenue to place China on par with more developed nations. Without that China wouldn’t even be able to compete on a equal footing with any major country in the world.”

    your own answer drives home the point of you can read between the lines. communism CANNOT compete with capitialism, as far as economics goes. the economic model that communism is built is a house built upon sand. without adopting capitalist ideals and markets communism will fail. Your smart enough to realize this, but not smart enough to see ( or blinded to…whatever works) the implication here….comunism does not work, it is fundementally flawed. I’m glad that China has devolped capitalist markets, it gives us some more leverage room to work with china on other issues I.E. Human rights.

    “Since when is a free press, or a “free” anything, exclusively a “Western” ideal?”

    Well Ken historically speaking communism hasn’t has alot of “free” anything. True republics have always had a free press, can china say the same about its communist goverment?

    ““why do communist countries have such a much more ‘precarious security situation’”

    Because Capitalist countries have committed themselves to destroying any Communist country or movement that pops up anywhere: Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Chile, Grenada, and on and on and on. It used to be called the “Domino Theory.” Again: I wont continue this conversation if you keep going in circles. Don’t waste my time, kid. I’m a busy man.”

    Typically speaking, our goverment has not send armed troops aginst a communist nations troops very often. the south Koreans asked us to help them aginst a invasion from the north, as well as the south vietnesse. As far as the covert war goes, once again don’t throw stones in a glass house, the communists have done the same all over the world, especially with democraies that are close to them, just as we have. I would hope that your not going to be dishonest, and try to deny that.

    “If communism is so superior..what exactly do you have to fear from ‘agents of unfriendly governments’”

    Gee, i dunno…death, terrorism, a return to exploitation. Don’t you get it, Tony? These aren’t lobbyists coming over to convince people why their country or system is bad. These are people coming to subvert a legit political system and force its people to toil for big business. Allende’s party was DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED. It got overthrown, at the expense of many lives, so America could feel more secure…and you have the gall to ask me what people have to fear from “unfriendly governments.”

    …once again Ken, ill refer to my previous answer, whatever you think we are guilty of, communists would do well to look at themselves as well. FARC, for example has been leading a marxist revolution for years and years, resulting to bombins, murder, and kidnapping to win there war.

    “If your political system is so wonderful…”

    Communism isn’t perfect or wonderful and I’ve never claimed it was. Don’t put your words in my mouth.

    Okay, got me there…..reread your answer on that one..and read between the lines a bit. I’ll never say that any system is perfect. Men are flawed, so of course our goverments are always flawed. All we can hope for is getting the best one we can. i’m not so bold as to say that goverment should have a leading say in economics like in a standard communist model, becuase even by your own admition, it doesn’t work.

    “In Short capitialsm is about the freedom to chose what to do, where to go, and how to live”

    What freedom does a 45 year-old woman with no pension, no health insurance, who pays rent every month, and has 4 kids, and works 2 jobs, have? You’re thinking of things from your privileged position in American society. Don’t project your good fortune on to others because that’s largely inaccurate.

    well Ken in america she does have the freedom. It may be difficult, but it exists. the difficulty she has is a direct result of her life choices. Yeah she may have been married and left on her ass when her husband left her or died, but we do have systems in place here in america to help her out. It’s not like we say “well your shit out of luck, go figure it out”. We have many systems here in america to help her out. However, if a man leaves a women with 4 kids and didn’t die, hes a douche, not only that but hes also probally paying child support and spouse support out the ass if she has no marketable skills. As far as a woman that has 4 kids, and has never been married….why the hell was she having 4 kids in the first place?

    your answer at the last question is a bit flawed since we actually have alot of resources going into programs to help women like this help themselves. Subsidized child care, welfare, gov’t student loans, etc etc. If she really wants to the potential for success is there, however it may be difficult, it exists.

    Ken i may not be the best orator, or statesman, or whatever you wanna call it. thats your major, not mine i guess, but anyway i hope you look at some of your answers, because without realizing it i think you drive home some of my points better than i could have done myself, without even realizing it. i’m sure more than a few people posting here have been reading, hopefully we can get a bit more feedback. Youve taught me a few things i didn’t know, i don’t think i did the same for you since i wasn’t trying to nessesarily, but who knows. By your own comments i think i can summon up a good point here

    Communism in its pure form, cannot and will never work, especiallywhen looking at the economic side of the house. By your own words you say that capitalist markets are nessesary for your goverment to work. I think its wonderful personally. It goes to reenforce my beliefs on communism, and just how flawed it is at its core. Granted, Capitalism isn’t perfect…i think alot of americans are having there eyes opened to the lack of ethics within the ranks of some of our higher banking establishments. That being said, it does not threaten our goverment, and the system can recover itself, it has in the past, and it will do so once again once some of these companies clean house. Communism cannot clean the corruption out of its ranks without revealing to its own people just how flawed there goverment (since in communism usually the economy and the goverment are run by the same people) is, and risk revolution.

    Anyway like i said before Ken, i think many of your answers re-enforce the points i was trying to drive home, and frankly you did it much more elequently then i did, but hey its cool…. maybe some other people can chime in.

    BTW ken, i do NOT hold a “privledged position” in american society, in fact us soliders are close to the poverty line in many aspects.

  79. 79Tony on May 16, 2009 at 6:09 am:

    Anyway Ken, i do hope your having a good day. Maybe you can extend a hand of invitation to some of our american communists. Bring them to china, and let them live there in your workers paradise. Save us the trouble would ya?

    btw…hows the weather other there?

  80. 80Ken on May 16, 2009 at 4:16 pm:

    Tony,

    We’ve reached an empasse. You’ve said your piece, I’ve said mine, and both sides have failed to convince the other of the superiority of their position. I’m going to leave it there. Call it a win if you want, I don’t care. I just have better things to do at the moment.

    The weather’s fine.

  81. 81Frank White on May 16, 2009 at 5:55 pm:

    I for one enjoyed the debate between Tony and Ken – I’d be a liar if I said I wasn’t hoping for more. I just wish there wasn’t as much name calling “idiot” and such.

  82. 82Tony on May 16, 2009 at 6:22 pm:

    Well frank, i admit i can bait sometimes, but i think it was a bit give and take on this one. Ken is right, im not going to convince him, and hes not going to convince me. I’m glad we had the chance to disscuss it like adults, which seems to happen less and less in our country now adays.

    I’m no scholar, but i try to maintain at least a remedial knowledge of history and politics.

  83. 83Dave Surls on May 17, 2009 at 12:48 pm:

    “Places like America or Britain are much are much stronger, richer, and more stable…”

    Duh. That’s because they aren’t communist.

  84. 84Tony on May 17, 2009 at 1:04 pm:

    and with a 10th of the population…go figure

  85. 85Ken on May 17, 2009 at 10:07 pm:

    “Duh. That’s because they aren’t communist”

    I think it’s probably because neither America nor Britain have been oppressed, colonized, and exploited by any other countries for as long as anyone could possibly remember, therefore they’ve always been on stable footing and able to build a stronger society because of it, unlike China or Russia. China was poor and backwards long before Communism ever got there. In fact, China, carved up and colonized by just about everyone, was called “the Sick Man of Asia” UNTIL the Communists came to power and finally made it a modern nation. They still carry the scars of having been so unstable and weak in the past which is why they’re all so paranoid about instability now. Taiwan is the same way. South Korea, too, for that matter. It has nothing to do with Communism and everything to do with their historic victimhood. I assume Russia was probably the same way, bled dry by the Czar and his aristocrats, but I don’t know enough about Russia to elaborate on that topic any further.

    BTW, Liberia isn’t Communist, either. I wonder why they’re so weak, poor, and unstable. Pakistan, too. And India. Ditto Thailand. How come their wonderful free markets and free societies don’t transfer over to better living standards for the people in their market societies? Another question might be, as Hernando de Soto asked, why “Capitalism triumphs in the West but fails everywhere else?”

  86. 86Ken on May 17, 2009 at 10:45 pm:

    And I just have to say:

    “a direct result of her life choices”

    There we go, there it is. The whole “welfare queen” stereotype that middle-class conservatives have about the lower classes, it’s practically built in to your arguments. It’s always their own fault, right? I don’t understand, Tony, why you can’t, or wont, grasp the fact that not everyone is a victim of their own lifestyle. Some people, for any number of reasons, are thrust into a situation that they can’t handle or get out of. They seek help any number of ways but so many people just write them off as “lazy” or claim they can’t “prioritize.” How lucky you and I are to be so well-off, huh?

    “if a man leaves a women with 4 kids and didn’t die, hes a douche”

    You’re right, but calling him a “douche” wont pay the bills or feed the mouths…

    “not only that but hes also probally paying child support and spouse support out the ass”

    Not if he’s a dead-beat dad, as so many are. And, what’s more, even if he IS dead his next of kin will be liable for funeral costs, taxes (if any), and any outstanding debts the deceased may have. On top of all that, any property in the deceased’s name that wasn’t paid in full will probably get repossessed, wouldn’t it? That all just contributes to the mountain of debt. But, hey, if the poor and lower-class finally do get so screwed over maybe they’ll all just kill themselves. Then we middle-class and rich folk could sip champagne and eat caviar in peace without those pesky demonstrations for a living wage or universal health care.

    “why the hell was she having 4 kids in the first place? ”

    Gee, I dunno, being free? Women are free to do whatever they want with their bodies, aren’t they? Or would you rather her have an abortion? Or put her kids up for adoption and then YOU pay for her lifestyle mistakes? Or, more realistically, maybe she has a religious objection to contraception? Maybe she used contraception and it failed and she couldn’t take the emotional strain of terminating her pregnancy? You really need to stop thinking of the situation of the lower classes in terms of your “black/white” mindset. Life is hardly ever that cut and dry.

    “BTW ken, i do NOT hold a ‘privledged position’ in american society”

    You did mention that you’d been to college, right? So obviously you’re better off than most. What’s more, you have the luxury of pissing and moaning about other people taking “your” money which makes me think you’re probably NOT wondering about where your next meal is going to be coming from. That’s what I’d be worrying about if I was poor, not what someone on the Internet thought of my political party.

    “in fact us soliders are close to the poverty line in many aspects”

    Oh, so you’re a soldier, huh? Hope you enjoy your VA hospital, college tuition, interest-free loans, tax exemptions, veteran benefits plan, and life-long stable career that MY taxes paid for. I bet you don’t hate socialized programs when they work for you, do you?

  87. 87Dave Surls on May 18, 2009 at 12:06 am:

    “China was poor and backwards long before Communism ever got there.”

    So were Taiwan, South Korea and Japan.

    Not anymore they aren’t.

    That’s because they don’t have communism. The PRC (and every other commie country) is lagging way behind all of those nations…economically…and in every way you can think of. For example, South Korea’s per capita PPP GDP is $27,647. Commie China’s is $5,963 (and, that’s IF you take the PRC’s propaganda at face value…frankly, I doubt if they’re telling the truth, commies usually don’t).

    “BTW, Liberia isn’t Communist, either. I wonder why they’re so weak, poor, and unstable. Pakistan, too. And India. Ditto Thailand. How come their wonderful free markets and free societies don’t transfer over to better living standards for the people in their market societies?”

    For one thing none of those countries follow western free market systems. The idea that those countries have free societies (outside of the economic sphere) is a total joke.

    ‘Fraid communism (or any other statist system) just doesn’t work. All it ever brings is tyrannical rule, grinding poverty, and lots and lots of dead bodies.

    Free markets rule….state controlled economies blow.

    Always has been that way, always will be that way.

  88. 88Tony on May 18, 2009 at 7:01 am:

    Well, i wasn’t going to respond to you anymore ken, but the tempayion is to great to deny…

    ““a direct result of her life choices”

    There we go, there it is. The whole “welfare queen” stereotype that middle-class conservatives have about the lower classes, it’s practically built in to your arguments. It’s always their own fault, right? I don’t understand, Tony, why you can’t, or wont, grasp the fact that not everyone is a victim of their own lifestyle. Some people, for any number of reasons, are thrust into a situation that they can’t handle or get out of. They seek help any number of ways but so many people just write them off as “lazy” or claim they can’t “prioritize.” How lucky you and I are to be so well-off, huh?

    Your right Ken not all are welfare queens (although they do exist in staggering numbers). We have systems in place to help out those in need. Housing subsidies, WIC, welfare, tax breaks, tax refunds (even for those who didn’t pay NEARLY as much into the system as they get in return). A Myriad of state systems are in place to help people out who have lost there footing on life. My objection is to life long handouts, what incentive does that give to people to want to improve themselves?

    “why the hell was she having 4 kids in the first place? ”

    “Gee, I dunno, being free? Women are free to do whatever they want with their bodies, aren’t they? Or would you rather her have an abortion? Or put her kids up for adoption and then YOU pay for her lifestyle mistakes? Or, more realistically, maybe she has a religious objection to contraception? Maybe she used contraception and it failed and she couldn’t take the emotional strain of terminating her pregnancy? You really need to stop thinking of the situation of the lower classes in terms of your “black/white” mindset. Life is hardly ever that cut and dry.”

    Your right Ken, men and women here in america are free here to do what they will with there bodies, including have as many children they want out of wed-lock. For them to do whatever they want with there bodies and turn to me and tell me that as a tax payer, im liable for there life choices is bullshit. Why should i be held finanically responcable for someones life choices. your right Ken light is hardly cut and dry, but i do believe in people being held responcible for there own actions. Unfortunately this belief seems to be in the minority now adays. I knew people growing up that spent more money on tattoos and cigarettes then they did on food for there kids, then wanted to blame the gov’t and everyone else for there woes. I like to thorw the “bullshit” flag on that one.

    “BTW ken, i do NOT hold a ‘privledged position’ in american society”

    “You did mention that you’d been to college, right? So obviously you’re better off than most. What’s more, you have the luxury of pissing and moaning about other people taking “your” money which makes me think you’re probably NOT wondering about where your next meal is going to be coming from. That’s what I’d be worrying about if I was poor, not what someone on the Internet thought of my political party.”

    Your right Ken, i did go to college for a few years, and you know what I PAID FOR EVERY CENT OF IT. No one helped me, i worked full time and went to school full time, i paid my bills, drove a shitty car, and ate plenty of top ramen. I also attended EVERY class, and got decent grades (grammer not withstanding heheheh). My mom did the same for me when i was young (single mom for my first 6 years of life). So don’t tell me it “can’t” be done. Its all about proritizing, and using your head. There are MANY people out there who think a new “fubu” jacket is more important that a nice set of clothes for a job interview, or believe that a new “armsleeve” tatoo is more important than feeding there kids.

    ““in fact us soliders are close to the poverty line in many aspects”

    Oh, so you’re a soldier, huh? Hope you enjoy your VA hospital, college tuition, interest-free loans, tax exemptions, veteran benefits plan, and life-long stable career that MY taxes paid for. I bet you don’t hate socialized programs when they work for you, do you?”

    first of all Ken, when you moved to China, in my eyes you lost all bitching rights. Secondly, i knew what i was signing up for when i signed the papers enlisting in the army. Yeah i get free healthcare, and college after i get out. I also deploy away from my family for years at a time (been deployed 3 years out of 6 in the army). Deal with insane amounts of stress, work long long hours (630am-6pm 5 days a week typically), in a pysically demanding job. With the benefits comes alot of responcibility. I don’t expect, nor do i get, anything for “free” i pay for my benefits everyday i put on the uniform. My income barely puts me above the poverty line. Oh yeah i also get to deal with leftists everyday who don’t have even the slightest concept of sacrifice or service for your country, and don’t care about anyone but themselves. so before you go judging what i get for “free” maybe you should look at the other side of the coin on that one ken, cause you really have no friggin clue.

  89. 89Tony on May 18, 2009 at 7:04 am:

    Oh yeah, did i meantion that while i deploy i get shot at and mortars launched at on almost a daily basis. Why don’t you show me the poor men and women in america who can say that (people living in detriot don’t count lol).

  90. 90Ken on May 18, 2009 at 2:10 pm:

    “first of all Ken, when you moved to China, in my eyes you lost all bitching rights.”

    Why? I still pay my US taxes, as required by law, which (if I’m not mistaken) is where all your benefits come from. But what have YOU done for ME lately? See, this is the kind of argument people like you use: why should I give my money to people who don’t deserve it? Well, I’d like to ask you, Tony: what have YOU done to deserve MY money? Get mortars shot at you? That sucks, but I never asked you to do it. Get deployed away from your family? Again, that’s pretty bad, but you chose to do it, it wasn’t that I forced you to do it. Why should I foot the bill for your insurance when you don’t even protect me?

    See how stupid it is to talk about “deserving” benefits and support?

  91. 91Ken on May 18, 2009 at 2:31 pm:

    “Free markets rule….state controlled economies blow”

    Then answer De Soto’s question, Dave: why does Capitalism triumph in the West and fail everywhere else?

    Also, Dave, when calculating China’s GDP you forgot to include Hong Kong and Macao. Isn’t that China, too?

  92. 92Tony on May 18, 2009 at 7:51 pm:

    lol well KEN your trying to compare apples and oranges here.

    first of all myself and the other service members in america provide by our very existance protection from other countries who would want to make war on us, or our allies. Without the american military it is a pretty sure bet that we’d either be speaking German, or russian. Its the same reason why any country has a paid armed forces.

    american armed forces has high standards and high expectations from its members. So just like any corperate agency they have to provide good benefits to attract high quaility recruits. Your argument doesn’t hold much weight. Ive gotten into this very same debate with more than a few of your type. Yes i get decent benefits, however i also sacrifice alot for those benefits. Yes i knew i may be shot at when i signed up, however i also knew that i would have my college set for me when i got out, and healthcare provided, and other benefits. Its kinda silly for you to say” That sucks, but I never asked you to do it. Get deployed away from your family? Again, that’s pretty bad, but you chose to do it, it wasn’t that I forced you to do it.” yeah your right i chose to do it..and with the sacrifice i also get compensated. I could explain this argument all day…why its nessesary for america to have a strong military, but i don’t think it would do much good.

    If you don’t like the fact that im getting paid to do what i do..lol…i guess i could say to vote on the “anti-military” platform..lol..good luck to that. Luckily most americans have a bit more common sense then you appear to have, so im not worried about my job security

    I can talk all day about “deserving” benefits. I serve the public, i train and fight americas wars, and go where our elected public officals send me. I don’t get to choose my fights, or wether or not im going to fight. I guess if you don’t like what i do..well…lol..go live in china.

    Every gov’t in the world has paid employees Ken, including china. Id like to see the gov’t that can get its people to work for it for free, so really your argument doesn’t make any sense. We are as much a part of the economy as anyone. EH maybe someone else can explain it better than me, i worked 16 hours today, which is more than i can say for some ken.

    Using your logic i could debate federal money being used to fund constrution projects that employ common labours in places i don’t go to Ken. Why should i pay for road construction in Mass.? why should i pay for Teachers that live in rhode island? Why should i pay the salaries of politians in different states that i don’t agree with? Or even better yet, why do i have to pay for Air force one to fly around the president when all i get is a car?

    Hey its all good though Ken, the Army is a equal oppertunity employer, if your jealous of my compensation, feel free to apply.

  93. 93Tony on May 18, 2009 at 10:05 pm:

    pardon the spelling of the last post, i worked a long day and didn’t proof read.

  94. 94Ken on May 19, 2009 at 12:18 am:

    Actually, Tony, I was merely trying to illustrate a point. I come from a family with a long military tradition: my grandfather served in WW2 under Patton and my dad and eldest uncle were both wounded in Korea. So, I understand quite well the sacrifice that servicepeople make, whatever flag they may fight under. In fact, I can’t imagine any reason that anyone would have for being “anti-military,” as soldiers usually enter the service for the following reasons:

    1) They were drafted and we sympathize with them for being forced to do something they didn’t want to.
    2) They felt it their duty to defend their country, something I think everyone can understand.
    3) They were willing to risk their lives for something they believed in (whatever that may be), something quite noble that we all can understand.

    You probably fit into one of those three, I’m sure. I don’t know you but I have quite a bit of respect for you simply for enlisting. You’re certainly braver than I am. I feel sorry for your wife (and kids?) who probably don’t get to see much of you during your deployment. If you’re overseas right now hopefully you’ll be safely home soon.

    Either way, I was (perhaps crudely) trying to make you see the folly of your “why should I pay for them?” argument. Frankly, I don’t feel I should have to support your benefits when I (that is to say: me, personally, Ken, a resident of China) get nothing from you, but my beef is probably with the IRS and not you. You provide an invaluable service, but not to me, though many others should be grateful.

    If you can take anything from this “debate,” I just hope you can put things into perspective and remember that not everyone of the lower class is lazy or unmotivated. Some are thrust into situations they can’t control and end up with more problems in their lives than they can handle. I’m not even talking about the people who refuse to work, but about those who work their fingers to the bone and still need help. Would you honestly say “why do they deserve my money?”

    “if your jealous of my compensation, feel free to apply”

    No thanks. My kid already gets free health care, living subsidies, and has free university tuition waiting for him thanks to this Socialist country. On top of all that, I’m not one of these selfish “me-centric” types who gripes about having to support other people. I don’t care about the taxes I pay here in China (and I pay both US and Chinese, BTW) because I know I’m helping someone else who really is less fortunate than me. Although I’d sure love one of those hansome uniforms you guys wear…

    “i worked a long day”

    Me too. Isn’t it tiring to “serve the public” like we do?

    If I ever go back to the US (ha!) let’s get a beer. I have a feeling that, politics aside, we would probably get along rather well.

  95. 95Tony on May 19, 2009 at 6:19 am:

    HA, you may be right Ken, while i am pretty hardcore about my political beliefs, i can respect anyone that can debate a topic without devulging into curseing matches.

    Its like i said before, we both are firm in our opinions and beliefs. I’m not bulging, and neither are you, so were going to have to agree to dissagree.

    this last two posts reminds me of a TV gamshow that was on for a while, where you had a panel of 5 people, and they chose between 5 contestants (who told there life stary on tv) to see who deserved a 50k check.

    BTW, im not a huge fan of the IRS either.

    Yeah a beer would be okay, but bring the hard liquor, ima Jack man.

  96. 96DangerousNate on May 19, 2009 at 2:06 pm:

    Why does IRS make you pay taxes even though you’re not in living in America?

  97. 97Ken on May 19, 2009 at 2:32 pm:

    “Yeah a beer would be okay, but bring the hard liquor, ima Jack man”

    I’ll have a Tsingtao.

    “Why does IRS make you pay taxes even though you’re not in living in America?”

    Every American citizen has to pay and file regardless of where they are in the world. Page 4 of my passport says:

    ‘All US citizens working and residing abroad are required to file and report on their worldwide income.’

    Honestly, I’m probably one of the very, very few who actually does it, though.

  98. 98DangerousNate on May 19, 2009 at 9:54 pm:

    Interesting…

    So even if you became a Chinese citizen you’d still have to pay taxes?

  99. 99Ken on May 20, 2009 at 2:29 pm:

    No, but then I’d be considered a tax dodger and I’d be listed in the Federal Register (as all people who give up their American citizenship are. China only recognizes one nationality). The IRS automatically assumes that anyone who lives abroad and gives up their American citizenship does so for purposes of tax evasion.

    And you might still have to pay, anyway. From another page of my passport:

    “you may continue to have US tax liability even if you lose US nationality.”

    Even if you lose or renounce your US citizenship, you’ll still owe taxes. But I don’t think anyone would still pay those taxes after losing nationality and the IRS has no right to tax the income of people who don’t fall under its jurisdiction. So usually what happens is that the person who gave up his/her US citizenship says “screw you” to the IRS and is never allowed back into the States again. At least that’s what I read.

    Death and taxes, eh?

  100. 100Anonycon on May 20, 2009 at 7:00 pm:

    Just… Wow. Nice debate guys. I’m glad you’re already in China Ken, it sounds like the right place for you.

    I agree with you about the Free Tibet crowd Ken. Most of those guys rail against their perception of the US moving toward the theocratic persuasion… Why are they so keen to reinstate it in Tibet?

    I may be completely wrong about this, but IIRC China’s exports to the U.S. only make up 5% of its GDP.

    “Without that China wouldn’t even be able to compete on a equal footing with any major country in the world.” – I like how you talk about it as if it’s a feature, not a bug.

    “Why does Capitalism triumph in the West and fail everywhere else?” – South Korea, Japan, Taiwan… Yep, sheer fail.

    Your laughable Berlin Wall argument – http://www.berlinermauer.se/BerlinWall/bygg.htm – Why the Berlin Wall was Built:
    “1. Economics. Too many well-educated people moved from East Germany, and some worked in West Berlin and lived in East Berlin (it’s cheaper there), so DDR lost money on this.

    2. Political. The West side interfered with the East side (the Russian sector).”

    Also, I wanted to point out that your snootiness is remarkably offensive (actually somewhat painful to read in this context) and I think it’s a testament to Tony’s character that he tolerated it so well.

    Tony – Thanks for your service to our nation, in both the military and the forum!

    Looking forward to the future debates! (Oh, and thanks Zombie for the excellent site)

  101. 101DangerousNate on May 20, 2009 at 10:03 pm:

    “Death and taxes, eh?”

    It does take on a whole new meaning now…

  102. 102Ken on May 21, 2009 at 2:21 pm:

    Snootiness, please. As if Tony’s first few posts weren’t completely condescending. Either way, he and I kissed and made up. It has nothing to do with you. And you can’t tell a person’s tone of voice on the Internet, remember?

    I can’t tell if your comment about Tibet is supposed to sarcastic or not. I hope not, because that’s exactly what the “Pro-Tibet” camp agitates for: nothing less than a return to feudalism in Tibet. I could go on about this, but I wont. Suffice it to say, though, that I know far more about the Tibet situation that I do about the Berlin Wall.

    “South Korea, Japan, Taiwan… Yep, sheer fail”

    Those three places are special cases. They haven’t failed only by grace of their unique relationship with the US. This is especially true in Korea and Japan. The US Army is the largest employer in all of Korea, in fact.

  103. 103Dave Surls on May 21, 2009 at 2:49 pm:

    “The economy of South Korea is a highly developed[7] trillion dollar free-market economy that is the fourth largest in Asia and 13th largest in the world. South Korea’s overnight transformation to a wealthy developed country in less than half a century is often called the Miracle on the Han River and earned the distinctive reputation of “Asian Tiger” in the international community.”–wiki

    That just shows you what free markets can do for you.

    For an example of what communism can do for you…see North Korea, the PRC or Vietnam.

  104. 104Dave Surls on May 21, 2009 at 3:04 pm:

    “In the 1990s North Korea saw stagnation turning into crisis. Economic assistance received from the former USSR and China was an important factor of its economic growth. In 1991 the former USSR withdrew its support and demanded for payment in hard currency for imports. China stepped in to provide assistance and supplied food and oil, most of it reportedly at concessionary price[citation needed]. But in 1994 China reduced its exports to North Korea. The rigidity in the political and economic systems of North Korea left the country ill-prepared for a changing world. The North Korean economy was undermined and its industrial output began to decline in 1990. Deprived of industrial inputs, including fertilizers, pesticides, and electricity for irrigation, agricultural output also started to decrease even before North Korea had a series of natural disasters in the mid-1990s. This evolution, combined with a series of natural disasters including record floods in 1995, caused one of the worst economic crises in North Korea’s history. Other causes of this crisis were high defense spending (about 25 percent of GDP) and bad governance. It is estimated…that between 1992 and 1998 North Korea’s economy contracted by 50 percent and several hundred thousand (possibly up to 3 million) people died of starvation.”–wiki

    Marxists hard at it in North Korea.

  105. 105Ken on May 21, 2009 at 4:32 pm:

    That’s because America isn’t dumping billions into North Korea like it’s doing to South Korea (and Japan AND Taiwan). Imagine that.

  106. 106GWB on May 22, 2009 at 8:51 am:

    Only reason we’re “dumping billions” into South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, and China is because they are producing and selling stuff to us.

  107. 107Ken on May 22, 2009 at 3:21 pm:

    Hardly. South Korea and Japan have a very unique personal relationship with the US, reflected in their Status of Forces agreements. They’d crumble in a second if America ever left, especially South Korea.

  108. 108Anonycon on May 23, 2009 at 2:27 pm:

    No, I’m not being sarcastic about the Free Tibet movement. Those guys are historically ignorant.

    Also, you being an English teacher, I shouldn’t need to point out that most writing has a tone. Hell, my 1098-T even has a distinct tone. Anyway!


    “Those three places are special cases. They haven’t failed only by grace of their unique relationship with the US. This is especially true in Korea and Japan.”

    Exhibit B: Singapore and Hong Kong. Singapore has 1/4 the population of North Korea and 4x the GDP. Hong Kong has less than 1/3 the population and nearly 7.5x the GDP. Add two more “special cases” to the list, I’m sure. Perhaps you’re missing the point, that what is precisely so special about them is that they are capitalist countries, who may trade with whomsoever they choose.


    “The US Army is the largest employer in all of Korea, in fact.”

    I couldn’t find a single source to substantiate this claim and I’m not surprised. I somehow doubt the Eighth U.S. Army (which I believe to number less than 50,000 men, correct me if I’m wrong) employs more than the RoKAF (with ~3.7M total personnel, 655,000 active). Why would they work for the US Army and not their own? It simply doesn’t make sense. Even the communist haven Wikipedia makes no mention of this, and suggests that the labor force of 23.99 million (2007 est.) is broken down by occupation as such: agriculture (7.5%), industry (17.3%), services (75.2%) (2007 est.). The SoFA article mentions no such thing either. Perhaps you meant the U.S. has the largest foreign presence in SK, which is true.

    The fact is, China is by and far the largest purchaser of SK exports. From Wikipedia: “Main Export Partners – the People’s Republic of China – 22.0%, U.S. – 12.5%, Japan – 7.1%, Hong Kong – 5.0% (2007)”
    In dollars the US accounts for ~46.5 of the $371.8 billions SK took in for exports. With a GDP of $1.342 trillion I’d say the loss of US as an export partner would be a major bummer, but not fatal to their economy. There’s always someone looking to buy more steel and fuel (and Kias perhaps!).

    Yes. We did bailout their economy in the 90s to the tune of $58.4 billion, during the Asian Financial crisis (caused primarily by highly aggressive speculation). However, according to an article in the Economic and Financial Review, “Much of South Korea’s recovery from the Asian Financial Crisis can be attributed to labor adjustments (ie. a dynamic and productive labor market) and alternative funding sources.”


    “That’s because America isn’t dumping billions into North Korea like it’s doing to South Korea (and Japan AND Taiwan). Imagine that.”

    Are you sure it isn’t because NK is run by a moonbat dictator? Perhaps it’s because NK’s largest employer, importer, and purchaser is the Korean People’s Army? Nothing to do with the reasons why they call it the “Hermit Kingdom” or why they had to build Propaganda Village? If you’re reading this and you haven’t heard of Propaganda Village look it up on Wikipedia. Pretty much says it all.

    No, I’d say the biggest risk to SK without the US would be NK aggression. China doesn’t seem interested in that sort of conquest and they have a valuable trade relationship with SK, but it is also a possibility. Then again, I had a friend who served in SK and he claims he felt like they were there to keep SK from invading NK!

    You come across as intelligent, why don’t you reference some of your more ridiculous statements (Berlin Wall LOL, NK, etc.) before putting them up on the board? I give you credit for sticking to your guns in this discussion, and I thank you for the entertainment, but you are a poor propagandist. I really want to hear what you think about Hong Kong and Singapore!

    Adios

  109. 109Ken on May 23, 2009 at 4:27 pm:

    “I couldn’t find a single source to substantiate this claim and I’m not surprised”

    Sorry, it wasn’t the US Army but the US Department of Defense. And, now that I check the reference (which I was quoting from memory before), I find it says “one of”

    Kim Jong Il: North Korea’s Dear Leader, by Michael Breen, pg. 37:

    “Aside from its defense role, the American presence has a significant impact on the local economy. Apart from the local sourcing of produce and spending by Americans in Korea, the US DOD is one of South Korea’s biggest employers.”

    An honest mistake. I admit my fault.

  110. 110Dave Surls on May 23, 2009 at 4:29 pm:

    “You come across as intelligent…”

    Not.

  111. 111Anonycon on May 23, 2009 at 4:47 pm:

    No worries. Actually I’m glad you clarified, I looked into Breen and I think I’m going to go down to the library and pick up “The Koreans”.

    I’d still like to hear your thoughts on Singapore and Hong Kong. These relatively tiny SE Asian countries have monstrous economies, that’s why I love them, and I am curious about an opinion of the communist persuasion.

  112. 112Ken on May 23, 2009 at 4:57 pm:

    I know a bit about Ji Zheng Dong (NK’s “propaganda village,” I don’t remember the name in Korean), though not enough to comment on whether or not it’s real. However, the US Army has lied about structures in North Korea before:

    “The building I’m standing in front of here is directly opposite the large South Korean building pictured above in the photos looking south. The picture to the right is from one of the visitor’s rooms inside that building. Why is this important? The key is to show that this building I’m standing in front of is actually a real building.

    The first time I took the DMZ tour from the South, and on some tours since, the US soldier leading the tour would tell everyone we weren’t looking at a real building. Instead the North’s building was ‘a facade designed to look large and impressive, but is in reality only a frame a few feet (one meter) thick.’ As the only view of the building at that time was from the front there was no way to confirm the thickness. Unless you visit the North . ”

    I wouldn’t be surprised if they were lying about Ji Zheng Dong, as well.

    I’ll answer your other questions when I have more time.

  113. 113Dave Surls on May 23, 2009 at 5:02 pm:

    South Korea has about 50,000,000 people. The United States has less than 30,000 military personnel statoned in Korea. The idea the handful of American military personnel in Korea plays a significant role in the South Korean economy ($1.342 trillion GDP/PPP) is total baloney.

    Typical commie claptrap.

  114. 114Ken on May 23, 2009 at 5:40 pm:

    Comment #109. Go read it, Dave.

  115. 115Ken on May 23, 2009 at 5:43 pm:

    And since you’re so concerned with GDP PPP, why don’t you read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

    And have a look at who is #2. And #3. And #13.

  116. 116Dave Surls on May 24, 2009 at 10:34 pm:

    1. Just wanted to make it clear that the South Korean economy is successful, and that the U.S. military presence there has NOTHING to do with it…despite what some people were trying to say.

    2. It’s GDP/PPP per capita that’s important.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

    No commie country is even close to the top. Most FORMER commie countries still haven’t recovered from the economic disaster that communism brings along with tyranny and mass slaughter.

    Communism is a bad deal…period.

  117. 117Ken on May 24, 2009 at 10:38 pm:

    “the U.S. military presence there has NOTHING to do with it”

    You’re right: it’s not the US Army, it’s the US Department of Defense.

  118. 118Dave Surls on May 25, 2009 at 2:39 pm:

    “You’re right”

    Obviously.

  119. 119Ken on May 26, 2009 at 1:04 am:

    If you don’t believe that the US Department of Defense if one of South Korea’s biggest employers (and, therefore, a huge part of its economy), and if you don’t believe that spending by US servicepeople in Korea is also a huge pillar of the South Korean economy, I suggest you contact Michael Breen and bitch him out about it. He’s fairly well-known for having solid sources, though.

  120. 120Tony on May 26, 2009 at 6:24 am:

    Hey im on leave…

    you all better not be having fun without me.

  121. 121Dave Surls on May 26, 2009 at 9:10 am:

    #119

    I don’t believe any of it, because it’s a lot of nonsense.

    “…spending by US servicepeople in Korea is also a huge pillar of the South Korean economy…”

    Yeah, right. Spending by 30,000 U.S. service people is what’s propping up Korea’s $1.3 trillion dollar economy, and keeping a nation of 48,000,000 people going. Dream on.

    No loonier than most stuff commies say, I expect.

  122. 122Ken on May 26, 2009 at 2:35 pm:

    Kim Jong Il: North Korea’s Dear Leader, by Michael Breen, pg. 37:

    “Aside from its defense role, THE AMERICAN PRESENCE HAS A SIGNIFICANT IMPACT ON THE LOCAL ECONOMY. Apart from the local sourcing of produce and SPENDING BY AMERICANS IN KOREA, the US DOD is one of South Korea’s biggest employers.”

    If you don’t believe that fact then I suggest you contact Breen and ask him yourself. He writes a column in the Korea Times, you can probably find his email there. Take it up with him. Until then: shut up.

  123. 123Ken on May 26, 2009 at 2:36 pm:

    Here’s his email:

    mike.breen@insightcomms.com

  124. 124Ken on May 26, 2009 at 6:51 pm:

    And, BTW, where are you getting these figures about South Korea’s “trillion-dollar” economy?

    This link:

    http://www.freshplaza.com/news_detail.asp?id=13960

    predicted that SK’s 2008 nominal GDP would be more than 1 trillion, but according to Wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

    it was only about $950,000,000.

    It was also ranked 15th. China was 3rd.

  125. 125Dave Surls on May 26, 2009 at 10:24 pm:

    “…spending by US servicepeople in Korea is also a huge pillar of the South Korean economy…”

    Baloney.

    And, no amount of tap dancing will make it anything other than baloney.

    I got news for you, commie: 30,000 American personnel don’t have enough dough to even minimally affect a $1.3 trillion dollar annual economy.

    It just ain’t possible.

  126. 126Dave Surls on May 26, 2009 at 10:43 pm:

    “the US DOD is one of South Korea’s biggest employers”

    Doubt it.

    “Many globally well-known South Korean conglomerates such as Samsung, Hyundai-Kia, Hyundai Heavy Industries, LG, SK, and POSCO have rapidly grown to become world leaders in their respective industries. Samsung Group is the world’s largest conglomerate and a leading consumer electronics brand. In 2006, Samsung Group alone would have been the world’s 34th largest economy if ranked. The Hyundai Kia Automotive Group is the second largest car company in Asia and one of the top five automakers in the world. Hyundai Heavy Industries is the world’s largest shipbuilder and POSCO is the world’s second largest steel maker. South Korea is the world’s largest shipbuilder, and one of the world’s top five automobile manufacturing nations, and the sixth largest steel producer in the world.”–wiki

    That’s what makes their economy go, not the employment of a handful of Korean DOD employees or spending by a few U.S. soldier/Sailors/airmen in Korea.

    The Koreans have busted their asses to become a first world industrialized nation…and they’re pretty much there, when just a couple of generations ago, they were a poverty stricken slave labor pool for the Japanese empire.

    Good on them. Just shows what you can do, if you’re willing to work your tail off, and if you steer clear of psychotic crap like communism.

  127. 127Ken on May 26, 2009 at 11:19 pm:

    Don’t waste your time talking about it with me, Surls. Ask Michael Breen where he got that information. I read it in HIS book…and he’s hardly a Commie.

  128. 128Dave Surls on May 27, 2009 at 2:24 am:

    I don’t care what the guy has to say. If he’s talking about the Korean economy, and he’s talking about the American DOD, and he’s not talking about Hyundai, KT and POSCO, then he simply doesn’t have a clue.

    Korea has a succesful economy because they’re huge electronics, automobile, steel and ship producers, not because a few G.I.s are dropping a couple of bucks in Korean bars.

  129. 129Dave Surls on May 27, 2009 at 2:41 am:

    “In 1962, Taiwan had a per capita gross national product (GNP) of $170, placing the island’s economy squarely between Zaire and Congo. By 2008 Taiwan’s per capita GNP, adjusted for purchasing power parity (PPP), had soared to $33,000 (2008 est.), contributing to a Human Development Index equivalent to that of other developed countries.”

    “Today Taiwan has a dynamic capitalist, export-driven economy with gradually decreasing state involvement in investment and foreign trade. In keeping with this trend, some large government-owned banks and industrial firms are being privatized. Real growth in GDP has averaged about eight percent during the past three decades. Exports have provided the primary impetus for industrialization. The trade surplus is substantial, and foreign reserves are the world’s fifth largest as of 31 December 2007. Taiwan’s current GDP (PPP) per capita is equal to the average of EU Countries.”–wiki

    Another country that managed not to go commie, and is thus, totally successful, even more successful than Korea. When I was a kid, Taiwan was a third world hellhole…now they’re a first world nation.

    Luckily for them, they didn’t fall to the PRC, which is still a total craphole, thanks to communist rule.

  130. 130Ken on May 27, 2009 at 1:50 pm:

    “then he simply doesn’t have a clue”

    Uh, yeah. He only speaks fluent Korean, has done business in both the north and south, and has lived in South Korea for 20 years, all while running a successful consultancy firm, has become an honorary citizen of Seoul, AND has been decorated by the South Korean government (something VERY rare for a foreigner). He’s also worked for the IMF and World Bank. But you somehow seem to know better than he does because you can copy and paste from Wikipedia. Give me a break, Dave.

    “which is still a total craphole”

    How the hell do you know? You’ve never even been here, you snide asshole. Although I’d love to see you come visit and open your big, hypocritical, jingoist mouth around some burly, tattooed “liumang” from Changchun and see how long it took before you got castrated.

  131. 131Ken on May 27, 2009 at 1:57 pm:

    Also, you fool, you keep forgetting to add Hong Kong and Aomen into China’s GDP. They’re ALWAYS included in Chinese government stats about the economy, seeing has how they’re Chinese citizens who produce and sell goods within Chinese territory.

  132. 132Dave Surls on May 27, 2009 at 2:00 pm:

    “He only speaks fluent Korean”

    So does Kim Jong-il.

    “You’ve never even been here”

    Never toured Nazi Germany, either, shit for brains.

  133. 133Dave Surls on May 27, 2009 at 2:09 pm:

    “Also, you fool, you keep forgetting to add Hong Kong and Aomen into China’s GDP.”

    As if Hong Kong’s prosperity was due to communism.

  134. 134Dave Surls on May 27, 2009 at 2:24 pm:

    “Although I’d love to see you come visit…”

    Don’t hold your breath, waiting.

  135. 135Ken on May 27, 2009 at 4:47 pm:

    “Don’t hold your breath”

    I’ve got an extra bed if you’re ever in the neighborhood. Tolerating your unpleasant presence would be a small price to pay to see some douchebag keyboard warrior finally get his come-uppance at the hands of the people of the country he enjoys insulting so much. I’d be happy to give you a push in your wheelchai…I mean…show you around…after you piss off the wrong person.

    Anytime you want, bud. You just let me know.

  136. 136Dave Surls on May 27, 2009 at 7:09 pm:

    I can tell the truth about (and therefore insult) communism and commie ratbags just fine right where I am.

  137. 137Ken on May 27, 2009 at 11:09 pm:

    So you choose to hide behind your computer screen rather than put your money where your mouth is, is that it Dave?

    Translation: you have no balls.

    What else did I expect?

  138. 138Dave Surls on May 27, 2009 at 11:47 pm:

    Whatever, commie.

  139. 139Dave Surls on May 28, 2009 at 12:36 am:

    More on the joys of communism…

    “…With this understood, the Soviet Union appears the greatest megamurderer of all, apparently killing near 61,000,000 people. Stalin himself is responsible for almost 43,000,000 of these. Most of the deaths, perhaps around 39,000,000 are due to lethal forced labor in gulag and transit thereto. Communist China up to 1987, but mainly from 1949 through the cultural revolution, which alone may have seen over 1,000,000 murdered, is the second worst megamurderer. Then there are the lesser megamurderers, such as North Korea and Tito’s Yugoslavia.”

    “Obviously the population that is available to kill will make a big difference in the total democide, and thus the annual percentage rate of democide is revealing. By far, the most deadly of all communist countries and, indeed, in this century by far, has been Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. Pol Pot and his crew likely killed some 2,000,000 Cambodians from April 1975 through December 1978 out of a population of around 7,000,000. This is an annual rate of over 8 percent of the population murdered, or odds of an average Cambodian surviving Pol Pot’s rule of slightly over just over 2 to 1.”

    “In sum the communist probably have murdered something like 110,000,000, or near two-thirds of all those killed by all governments, quasi-governments, and guerrillas from 1900 to 1987. Of course, the world total itself it shocking. It is several times the 38,000,000 battle-dead that have been killed in all this century’s international and domestic wars. Yet the probable number of murders by the Soviet Union alone–one communist country– well surpasses this cost of war. And those murders of communist China almost equal it.”

    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM

    The more that communism fizzles, the better.

  140. 140Ken on May 28, 2009 at 1:02 am:

    “Whatever, commie”

    Exactly what I expected: a non-answer. You’re a coward, Dave. Just admit it. You talk big behind your comp but I’ll bet a grand that you wouldn’t dare come here and spout your garbage. I’m putting you on the spot, pal: I had the guts to move to “communism” because I believe in it. If you have the fortitude to stand up for your convictions then, by all means, come here and tell people about what a “craphole” the PRC is. How funny that you, someone who, most likely, has never set foot in China, insults this country, but that the Pew Opinions Poll found that China was the most optimistic country on Earth. Or, for instance, that in July of 2008 the International Herald Tribune found that 86% of Chinese were content with the way the state their country was in. What does that mean? I can spell it out for you: YOU KNOW DICK.

    “More on the joys of communism”

    Heard it a million times, don’t believe it. And, even if I did, Capitalism and organized religion have killed far more. Not that your hypocritical ass cares, of course. You double standards haven’t gotten any better since Zombie’s posts about Obama. Could you be any more obnoxious?

  141. 141Ken on May 28, 2009 at 1:22 am:

    Now that I’ve actually followed your link and read your bullshit article, I can see why they seem to confirm your claims: the source ares totally biased.

    “Avedon, John F. IN EXILE FROM THE LAND OF SNOWS. New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1984″
    Pro-Tibet

    “Barber, Noel. FROM THE LAND OF LOST CONTENT: THE DALAI LAMA’S FIGHT FOR TIBET. St James’s Place London: Collins, 1969″
    Pro-Tibet

    “Republic of China: World Anti-Communist League, China Chapter”
    Taiwanese

    “Republic of China: Asian People’s Anti-Communist League”
    Taiwanese

    “Republic of China: Asian People’s Anti-Communist League, June 1961″
    Taiwanese

    “DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE HOW THE CHINESE COMMUNISTS IMPINGE ON HUMAN RIGHTS. Republic of China: World Anti-Communist League, China Chapter, September 1977″
    Taiwanese (I bet this one was totally un-biased, eh?)

    “Gilbert, Rodney. GENOCIDE IN TIBET: A STUDY IN COMMUNIST AGGRESSION. New York: American-Asian Educational Exchange, n.d.”
    Tibetan

    “Li Cheng-Chung. THE QUESTION OF HUMAN RIGHTS ON CHINA MAINLAND. Republic of China: World Anti-Communist League, China Chapter, September, 1979″
    Taiwanese

    “THE SYSTEM OF FORCED LABOR ON MAINLAND CHINA. Taiwan: Chinese Federation of Labour, 1956″
    Taiwanese, Cold War-era

    “TIBET AND THE CHINESE PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC. A Report to the International Commission of Jurists”
    According to ex-CIA agent Philip Agee the ICJ was “set up and controlled by the CIA for propaganda operations.”-Wiki

    “TRUE FACTS OF MAOIST TYRANNY. Republic of China: World Anti-Communist League, China Chapter, November 1971″
    Taiwanese

    Hmmm, with all those biased sources and their axes to grind, I’m not surprised China got savaged.

    But hey, did you read the other articles on that page, Dave?

    “the four regimes that have committed the most democide, specifically the Soviet Union, Nationalist China under Chiang Kai-shek, communist China, and Nazi Germany…”

    Nationalist China under Chiang? You mean, the very same Nationalist Party, the one that rules the Taiwan you held up as an example, is the one of the very same “deka-murderers” lumped in with the Nazis and Stalinists by the author of the article that YOU linked? Wow, your double standards are really revolting.

    At least you admit it, though.

  142. 142Dave Surls on May 28, 2009 at 1:41 am:

    “I’m not surprised China got savaged.”

    Poor little commies. Murder a hundred million people worlwide and keep China, and every other country you rule a poverty-stricken craphole, and right away people are jumping in your shit.

    My heart bleeds for you, commie.

  143. 143Ken on May 28, 2009 at 2:55 am:

    “the four regimes that have committed the most democide…Nationalist China under Chiang Kai-shek…”

    How convenient for you to have ignored the cold-blooded murder that Jiang Jieshi and his Christian, Capitalist party wreaked upon the world. Especially after you spent more than a couple posts building up Taiwan and its ruling Nationalist Party.

    But what else do I expect from you?

    “a poverty-stricken craphole”

    The second largest economy in the World a craphole, huh?

    Still, Dave, I’m inviting you here to China to say the very same thing to real Chinese people. When are you coming? Or are you just too damn chicken?

  144. 144Dave Surls on May 28, 2009 at 3:42 am:

    “The second largest economy in the World a craphole, huh?”

    Yeah, a poverty-stricken, tyrannical, despotism and a boil on the ass of the earth…thanks to commies like yourself.

    That pretty well sums up the PRC in a nutshell.

  145. 145Dave Surls on May 28, 2009 at 3:49 am:

    More from Professor Rummel…

    “With the passing of communism into history as an ideological alternative to democracy it is time to do some accounting of its human costs.”

    “Few would deny any longer that communism–Marxism-Leninism and its variants–meant in practice bloody terrorism, deadly purges, lethal gulags and forced labor, fatal deportations, man-made famines, extrajudicial executions and show trials, and genocide. It is also widely known that as a result millions of innocent people have been murdered in cold blood.”

    And, to go back to what I first said: when it comes to communists, Pinochet had the right idea.

  146. 146Dave Surls on May 28, 2009 at 1:13 pm:

    And, btw, Kenny-girl, you can spare me the constant threats of violence against my person. Commie thugs like you might be able to intimidate and murder in crapholes like the old Soviet Union or today’s PRC, but you’re in no position to use violence to silence me…so, spare me the threats.

    I’ll say whatever I please about the pustulent country you live in, and your vile state religion…and there’s exactly zero chance that you or your chicom pals can use violence to shut me down.

    So, piss off with your empty threats.

  147. 147LW on May 28, 2009 at 1:38 pm:

    Whatever, commie.

  148. 148Ken on May 28, 2009 at 2:22 pm:

    “So, piss off with your empty threats”

    Don’t get the wrong idea, Dave. I’m not threatening you, just challenging you to live up to your big, fat mouth (or, rather, your big, fat keyboard). I’m not a violent person, I’d just like to see what would happen if you ever had the guts to actually come here and mouth off.

    But, of course, you wont. Because you’re a gutless fool who snipes at others online but who would never do the same to anyone’s face. What a joke.

    “thanks to commies like yourself”

    Better red than yellow. At least I had the guts to come here. You’re too damn cowardly. Pathetic.

  149. 149Dave Surls on May 28, 2009 at 5:33 pm:

    “I’m not a violent person”

    I know you don’t have the stones to try it yourself little girl, that’s why you’re threatening me with your big bad commie friends…only it ain’t going to happen…so dry up and blow away.

    This ain’t Tianemen Square, and I’ll say whatever I please, and commies like you ain’t going to stop me with violence or threats like you can do in the glorious homeland.

  150. 150Ken on May 28, 2009 at 6:31 pm:

    ::eye roll::

    “violence or threats”

    Gimme a break. All I was inferring was that if you ever said the things about China you’ve been saying on here to actual Chinese people you wouldn’t make any friends, as the Chinese have little patience for ignorant foreigners who needlessly insult them. I’d be surprised if someone didn’t slap some sense into you. Wouldn’t be me, though, since I don’t quite care enough to waste my time obliging some bully who seems to just be itching for a fight. Grow up, huh? This isn’t the schoolyard.

    This has surpassed even the realm of the absurd and stupid and become a childish pissing contest. I have better things to do. I’ll go do them. Tony and I agreed to disagree, Dave. You and I will just have to do the same.

    Honestly, though, Dave. Do come visit China sometime. I think you might be a bit shocked at how Chinese reality doesn’t quite match up with what you might think of it.

    And it’s “TianANmen.”

  151. 151Ken on May 28, 2009 at 6:38 pm:

    One more thing:

    “that’s why you’re threatening me with your big bad commie friends…”

    This reminded me of:

    Bush: Mikhail, what are you doing here?

    Gorbachev: Came to visit with gift for warming of house. Instead, find you grappling with local oaf.

    Homer: Brought some of your commie friends over to help you fight dirty, huh?

    It’s not a good sign when real life (if the Internet can be considered “real life”) mirrors The Simpsons.

  152. 152Dave Surls on May 28, 2009 at 11:33 pm:

    “I’d be surprised if someone didn’t slap some sense into you.”

    LOL. God, this guy is an idiot.

    Get a clue, red moron. I’ll say ANYTHING I please about communism and the PRC, and neither you nor your (imaginary) friends are going to use violence in response to what I say.

    So, quit with your absurd threats. Your (imaginary) commie friends aren’t going to beat me up, or take me to the killing fields or anything else.

    Commie turds like you have murdered tens of millions, but you’re in no position to hurt me, dolt.

  153. 153Dave Surls on May 29, 2009 at 12:04 pm:

    “The Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 culminating in the Tiananmen Square Massacre (referred to in Chinese as the June Fourth Incident, to avoid confusion with two other Tiananmen Square protests) were a series of demonstrations in and near Tiananmen Square in Beijing in the People’s Republic of China (PRC) beginning on April 14. Led mainly by students and intellectuals, the protests occurred in a year that saw the collapse of a number of communist governments around the world.”

    “The protests were sparked by the death of pro-market, pro-democracy and anti-corruption official, Hu Yaobang, whom protesters wanted to mourn. By the eve of Hu’s funeral, 100,000 people had gathered on the Tiananmen square. While the protests lacked a unified cause or leadership, participants were generally against the government’s authoritarianism and voiced calls for economic change and democratic reform within the structure of the government. The demonstrations centered on Tiananmen Square in Beijing, but large-scale protests also occurred in cities throughout China, including Shanghai, which stayed peaceful throughout the protests.”

    “The movement lasted seven weeks from Hu’s death on 15 April until tanks cleared Tiananmen Square on 4 June. In Beijing, the resulting military response to the protesters by the PRC government left many civilians dead or severely injured. The official Chinese government figure is 241 dead, including soldiers, and 7,000 wounded. But Chinese student associations and the Chinese Red Cross reported 2000 to 3000 deaths.”–wiki

    Think I’ll l do my commenting on communism and the glories of the PRC from over here in America.

  154. 154Dave Surls on May 29, 2009 at 12:30 pm:

    “On April 4, 2009, Sun Wenguang , 75, retired professor of Shandong University, was brutally beaten by five unidentified men as he returned from paying respects to memory of the late Zhao Ziyang, former General Secretary of the Communist Party of China who visited students on Tiananmen Square during the 1989 democracy movement, and of Zhang Zhixin, a dissident killed during the Cultural Revolution.”

    “In the early morning of Qing Ming, the traditional day of remembering and honoring the dead, Sun defied university authorities to make the trip to Yingxiong Mountain in Jinan, Shandong Province. The police sent nine vehicles to follow Sun’s taxi. He was attacked at around 10:00 a.m. The attackers threw him down a two-meter drop and then beat him for over ten minutes, breaking three of his ribs. He was brought to Jinan’s Qilu Hospital. At present he is unable to turn his head but is conscious and reportedly in stable condition.”

    “Between 1966 and 1981, Sun Wenguang was detained and imprisoned multiple times for a total of more than ten years for expressing his opinions on political issues.”

    http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2009/04/07/china-retired-dissident-professor-beaten-to-ribs-broken/

    Tell you what, Kenny-girl, I’ll have a meet with you and some commie thugs, under the following terms.

    1. It takes place outside China, in a time and place of my choosing.

    2. You’re present.

    3. I have guns…you commies don’t.

    4. At the end of the meeting I do to you what commies have done to so many innocent people (that means bye-bye commies…you’re dead).

    Let me know if you or any commie thugs in the PRC are up for it.

  155. 155Terry Johnson on Jun 2, 2009 at 6:03 pm:

    If Kenny loves N.Korea so much why doesn’t he apply for asylum there ? Or is he/she just another hypocritical wanna-be “commie” who enjoys living in a capitalism society while preaching to the rest of us about the “wonders of communism”. The truth is, of course, that if the wonderful state of N.Korea opened it’s borders tomorrow the whole population would flee to S.Korea or China. Grow up, Kenny, the 60s is over…

  156. 156Ken on Jun 2, 2009 at 6:26 pm:

    “Or is he/she just another hypocritical wanna-be ‘commie’ who enjoys living in a capitalism society while preaching to the rest of us about the ‘wonders of communism’ ”

    This charge gets funnier and funnier everytime I hear it…

  157. 157Cambodia Tours on Aug 14, 2011 at 8:45 am:

    Excellent read, I just passed this onto a colleague who was doing a little research on that. And he actually bought me lunch because I found it for him smile…

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